Electrical Engineering - Extra flexible main lead

Author

Extra flexible main lead

Alex Coleman

2006-05-02, 11:21 am

Is it possible to get more flexible 13 Amp mains lead to replace those
leads which hardly seem to bend?

I guess that these "inflexible flexes" are made of tough version of PVC
and contain and fewer but larger individual wires in the cores.

Presumably having fewer cores is a cheaper way to make a mains lead. is
this correct?

sm_jamieson@hotmail.com

2006-05-02, 12:21 pm

Dave Plowman (News)

2006-05-02, 12:21 pm

In article <Xns97B79B113C74A71F3M4@127.0.0.1>,
Alex Coleman <no@no-email.com> wrote:
> Is it possible to get more flexible 13 Amp mains lead to replace those
> leads which hardly seem to bend?

Artic flex is better than straight PVC, but rubber better still. But 1 mm
rubber is over twice the price of 1mm PVC in the TLC cat.

--
*All generalizations are false.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

manatbandq@hotmail.com

2006-05-02, 12:21 pm

sm_jamie...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Alex Coleman wrote:
>
> You need the type with fabric woven in, used to be cotton. They used to
> be utilised on electric irons etc, since the outer braid does not melt.
> Lots of strands of loosely wound conductor and cotton. Not sure of the
> current rating for these.
> Simon.

My Bosch SDS has very flexible cable (and a good useful length of it,
too). No sign of any fabric in it. IMHO the fabric stuff is no better
than normal mains cable wrt flexibility.

So, yes, you can get it but I have no idea where.

MBQ

Christian McArdle

2006-05-02, 12:21 pm

> I guess that these "inflexible flexes" are made of tough version of PVC
> and contain and fewer but larger individual wires in the cores.

You can get ultra-flexible flex. However, it tends to be rubber based, so
has a shorter life expectancy even if not continuously flexed.

Christian.

Grunff

2006-05-02, 12:21 pm

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

> Artic flex is better than straight PVC, but rubber better still. But 1 mm
> rubber is over twice the price of 1mm PVC in the TLC cat.

As much as I love rubber, I've stopped using it in favour of arctic
flex. The main reason is abrasion resistance - the latter is much
tougher than rubber.

I bought a 100m drum of 1.5mm yellow arctic flex, and am still working
my way through it.

--
Grunff

Prepair Ltd

2006-05-02, 1:21 pm

On Tue, 2 May 2006 15:52:27 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
<cmcardle75@nospam.yahooxxxx.co.uk> wrote:

>
>You can get ultra-flexible flex. However, it tends to be rubber based, so
>has a shorter life expectancy even if not continuously flexed.
>
>Christian.
>

Harmonised standard reference for what was 'TRS' or Tough Rubber Sheath is HOFR
- Heat Oil Fire Resistant or HO7.

Also CSP for extra fire/temperature resistance.

Both available from wholesalers, we use up to 16mm twin in HOFR, find it is
better on outdoor rail equipment where the ground is likely to be granite
chippings are wet.

Artic grades are normally only available up to 2.5mm IIRC.

Welding cable is the most flexible and has CSP double sheath in the version we
buy, not available for mains voltages though.

Peter
--
Peter A Forbes
Prepair Ltd, Luton, UK
prepair@easynet.co.uk
http://www.prepair.co.uk

Dave Plowman (News)

2006-05-02, 3:21 pm

In article <s88ki3-7re.ln1@mercury.tcm.vispa.net.uk>,
Grunff <grunff@ixxa.com> wrote:
> As much as I love rubber, I've stopped using it in favour of arctic
> flex. The main reason is abrasion resistance - the latter is much
> tougher than rubber.

Strangely all the cables sparks use for lights on location filming are
rubber. And they get a fair amount of abuse.

It's TRS which I think is stronger than some rubber cables but still
pretty flexible and coils well/ lays flat.

--
*You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Grunff

2006-05-02, 4:21 pm

Owain wrote:

> Is it permissible to use yellow arctic on visibility grounds on 240V or
> does it have to be blue? (Yellow is 110V and blue is 240V in standard
> BS4343 connector colouring, for those across the pond.)

Good question - I don't know. I've mainly used it to replace short mains
flex on power tools etc., where it is always terminated in a 13A plug.

--
Grunff

Stephen Dawson

2006-05-02, 5:21 pm

> Artic grades are normally only available up to 2.5mm IIRC.
>

> snipped>

Arctic is availible upto 6mm sq local to us.

Peter A Forbes

2006-05-02, 5:21 pm

On Tue, 02 May 2006 19:30:01 GMT, "Stephen Dawson" <stephendawson@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>
>
>
>Arctic is availible upto 6mm sq local to us.
>

Yes, I think there are supplies of larger sizes, but 'normally' assumes normal
outlets rather than 'specialist' wholesalers. We use a couple ourselves, most
wholesalers run a mile if you mention 16mm twin TRS! :-))

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email: diesel@easynet.co.uk
Web: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel

John McGaw

2006-05-02, 6:21 pm

Alex Coleman wrote:
> Is it possible to get more flexible 13 Amp mains lead to replace those
> leads which hardly seem to bend?
>
> I guess that these "inflexible flexes" are made of tough version of PVC
> and contain and fewer but larger individual wires in the cores.
>
> Presumably having fewer cores is a cheaper way to make a mains lead. is
> this correct?

It should certainly be possible. The first thing to think about is "why
a 13A mains lead?". Is your computer really likely to be consuming over
2.8kW? (220V X 13). A 5A mains lead would still allow you over 1kW and
that should be enough for even a wildly overclocked SLI system. I've had
great luck with electrical cords made with fine stranded conductors
combined with a silicone rubber insulation although where I'd look for
one in the UK I have no idea.

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

John

2006-05-02, 7:21 pm

In article <4e20cf7038dave@davenoise.co.uk>, Dave Plowman (News)
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> writes
>In article <s88ki3-7re.ln1@mercury.tcm.vispa.net.uk>,
> Grunff <grunff@ixxa.com> wrote:
>
>Strangely all the cables sparks use for lights on location filming are
>rubber. And they get a fair amount of abuse.
>
>It's TRS which I think is stronger than some rubber cables but still
>pretty flexible and coils well/ lays flat.
>
We use rubber (or rubber compounds) in the railway industry for
signalling because it has great abrasion qualities. You pull several
cables over each other in a run and rubber shrugs it off. Use PVC outer
sheathes and before long you have melting (localised heating) or splits.

The biggest problem is when you mix different sheaths - they then react
with each other and cause no end of problems.
--
John Alexander, <><

Remove NOSPAM if replying by e-mail

kony

2006-05-02, 9:21 pm

On Tue, 02 May 2006 15:14:37 +0100, Alex Coleman
<no@no-email.com> wrote:

>Is it possible to get more flexible 13 Amp mains lead to replace those
>leads which hardly seem to bend?
>
>I guess that these "inflexible flexes" are made of tough version of PVC
>and contain and fewer but larger individual wires in the cores.
>
>Presumably having fewer cores is a cheaper way to make a mains lead. is
>this correct?

You posted to several groups, it might be prudent to mention
the APPLICATION of this cable, all those little specifics
that resulted in there being myriad types of cable on earth.

In general, yes having more and smaller strands will make it
more flexible, as will looser bundling and certain
insulators. Cable can get expensive fast, the more details
you post the more likely the cost effective solution can be
found.

Lostgallifreyan

2006-05-02, 9:21 pm

kony <spam@spam.com> wrote in
news:18pf525te7uaf0koh7mr8cbjrq5f581u23@4ax.com:

> On Tue, 02 May 2006 15:14:37 +0100, Alex Coleman
> <no@no-email.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> You posted to several groups, it might be prudent to mention
> the APPLICATION of this cable, all those little specifics
> that resulted in there being myriad types of cable on earth.
>
> In general, yes having more and smaller strands will make it
> more flexible, as will looser bundling and certain
> insulators. Cable can get expensive fast, the more details
> you post the more likely the cost effective solution can be
> found.
>

One thing I didn't see mentioned yet is the twisting. People have said that
loose bundling makes more flexibilty, but looser bundling usually means
less twist, and actually more twist makes better flexibility. Try it for
yourself, that will show you better than anything I can tell you. (How it
works is, when one conductor is on the outside of the bend, it very soon is
on the inside again to give slack to itself on the outside bend. This
allows tighter bend radius as well as better flex and wear resistance).

Interesting thread, this. Now, if anyone would be willing to tackle my far
less interesting Frequency to Pitch voltage conversion question in
group sci.electronics.components, I shall be extremely grateful.

Peter A Forbes

2006-05-03, 4:21 am

On Tue, 02 May 2006 22:59:33 +0100, Owain <owain47125@stirlingcity.coo.uk>
wrote:

>Peter A Forbes wrote:
>
>Must be a bugger, getting a 1 mile reel of 16mm into the back of the
>Transit.
>
>Owain

Fortunately, we only buy it in 100m at a time, which is heavy enough.

We did locate some 25mm twin and have a bit left, but I believe that it was
discontinued due to lack of demand.

We use this cable for the outputs of our mobile chargers:

http://www.prepair.co.uk/Mobile1.htm

Highest output with 16mm is 50A or 100A, we go up to 2 strands of 50mm welding
cable for the 200A. Cable lengths are fairly short because of volt drop, usually
5metres or 10metres for the 50mm.

Peter
--
Peter & Rita Forbes
Email: diesel@easynet.co.uk
Web: http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel

Alex Coleman

2006-05-05, 2:21 am

On 02 May 2006, Grunff<grunff@ixxa.com> wrote:

> Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
>
>
> As much as I love rubber, I've stopped using it in favour of arctic
> flex. The main reason is abrasion resistance - the latter is much
> tougher than rubber.
>
> I bought a 100m drum of 1.5mm yellow arctic flex, and am still
> working my way through it.
>

How does the price of arctic flex compare to regular flex?

Alex Coleman

2006-05-05, 2:21 am

On 02 May 2006, Christian McArdle<cmcardle75@nospam.yahooxxxx.co.uk>
wrote:

>
> You can get ultra-flexible flex. However, it tends to be rubber
> based, so has a shorter life expectancy even if not continuously
> flexed.
>
> Christian.
>

Is silicon flex more flexible than regular PVC?

Can anyone compare the quality or merits of the two?

Lostgallifreyan

2006-05-05, 5:21 am

Alex Coleman <no@no-email.com> wrote in
news:Xns97BA3E7A2DD1F71F3M4@127.0.0.1:

> On 02 May 2006, Christian McArdle<cmcardle75@nospam.yahooxxxx.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Is silicon flex more flexible than regular PVC?
>
> Can anyone compare the quality or merits of the two?
>

Silicone rubber covering is MUCH more flexible, and stands higher
temperatures, but is more expensive and much less resistant to
abrasion, cutting and especially crushing. While it's rubbery, it crumbles
like a weak crystal under moderate pressure, wheras PVC would be more
ductile even at higher pressures. Both give off harmful gasses if you heat
them enough to burn. I think silicone rubber might have a higher dielectric
strength than similar thickness on PVC, but I'm not sure.

Grunff

2006-05-05, 5:21 am

Alex Coleman wrote:

> How does the price of arctic flex compare to regular flex?

<http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat...=12315&ts=15184>

--
Grunff

Lostgallifreyan

2006-05-05, 5:21 am

Grunff <grunff@ixxa.com> wrote in news:9hcri3-
qfp.ln1@mercury.tcm.vispa.net.uk:

> Alex Coleman wrote:
>
>
> <http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat...=12315&ts=15184>
>

Can't help wondering how they specify 1.5 mm2 at 16 amps and 2.5 mm2 at 15
amps.

Stuff is cheap though, very.

Dave Plowman (News)

2006-05-05, 6:21 am

In article <Xns97BA3DF261DC371F3M4@127.0.0.1>,
Alex Coleman <no@no-email.com> wrote:
> How does the price of arctic flex compare to regular flex?

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_In...ndex/index.html

--
*He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless, dead.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tim Williams

2006-05-05, 2:21 pm

"Alex Coleman" <no@no-email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns97BA3E7A2DD1F71F3M4@127.0.0.1...
> Is silicon flex more flexible than regular PVC?

I wouldn't think so; silicon isn't very flexible. That's why thermal stress
tends to cause power transistors' silicon dies to fail.

Tim (yes, I have to :-p)

--
Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Bob Eager

2006-05-05, 2:21 pm

On Fri, 5 May 2006 16:48:39 UTC, "Tim XXXXXXXX" <tmoranwms@charter.net>
wrote:

> "Alex Coleman" <no@no-email.com> wrote in message
> news:Xns97BA3E7A2DD1F71F3M4@127.0.0.1...
>
> I wouldn't think so; silicon isn't very flexible. That's why thermal stress
> tends to cause power transistors' silicon dies to fail.
>
> Tim (yes, I have to :-p)

Quite right. Silicone flex isn't bad, though. Have some on the small
soldering iron.

--
The information contained in this post is copyright the
poster, and specifically may not be published in, or used by
Avenue Supplies, http://avenuesupplies.co.uk

Alex Coleman

2006-05-05, 7:21 pm

On 05 May 2006, Lostgallifreyan<no-one@nowhere.net> wrote:

> Alex Coleman <no@no-email.com> wrote in
> news:Xns97BA3E7A2DD1F71F3M4@127.0.0.1:
>
>
> Silicone rubber covering is MUCH more flexible, and stands higher
> temperatures, but is more expensive and much less resistant to
> abrasion, cutting and especially crushing. While it's rubbery, it
> crumbles like a weak crystal under moderate pressure, wheras PVC
> would be more ductile even at higher pressures. Both give off
> harmful gasses if you heat them enough to burn. I think silicone
> rubber might have a higher dielectric strength than similar
> thickness on PVC, but I'm not sure.

Ah, silicone not silicon!

And is it a form of rubber or is it just called "silicone rubber"
because it is silicone made to behave like rubber?

Interesting about how it crumbles.

Tim Williams

2006-05-06, 12:21 am

"Alex Coleman" <no@no-email.com> wrote in message
news:Xns97BAECBEA67AF71F3M4@127.0.0.1...
> Ah, silicone not silicon!
>
> And is it a form of rubber or is it just called "silicone rubber"
> because it is silicone made to behave like rubber?

AFAIK, it's always rubbery. I would think heavily crosslinked silicones
could have pretty solid structure, but I've never heard of a hard or brittle
silicone product so I guess not.

Tim

--
Deep Fryer: a very philosophical monk.
Website: http://webpages.charter.net/dawill/tmoranwms

Lostgallifreyan

2006-05-06, 12:21 am

Alex Coleman <no@no-email.com> wrote in
news:Xns97BAECBEA67AF71F3M4@127.0.0.1:

> On 05 May 2006, Lostgallifreyan<no-one@nowhere.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Ah, silicone not silicon!
>
> And is it a form of rubber or is it just called "silicone rubber"
> because it is silicone made to behave like rubber?
>
> Interesting about how it crumbles.
>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone
(I'm really beginning to like that Wiki)

I didn't know they could be hard plastics too..
They mention silly putty, which is a silicone, and an extreme example of
what I was getting at. I think many silicones have an abrupt change of
properties under impact either at speed or pressure. Cable covering has a
weak pressure resistance, silly putty has a poor speed resistance, and
either way what happens is they cease to move as a fluid elastic, and
will fracture like glass or crystal.

Dave Plowman (News)

2006-05-06, 6:21 am

In article <SZT6g.53$771.46@fe06.lga>,
Tim XXXXXXXX <tmoranwms@charter.net> wrote:
> AFAIK, it's always rubbery. I would think heavily crosslinked silicones
> could have pretty solid structure, but I've never heard of a hard or
> brittle silicone product so I guess not.

Yes - my oldest soldering iron with silicone lead which came with a Maplin
kit solder station must be well over 10 years old and the lead is still
fine despite mucho flexing over the years.

--
*Middle age is when work is a lot less fun - and fun a lot more work.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Alex Coleman

2006-05-06, 6:21 pm

On 06 May 2006, Lostgallifreyan<no-one@nowhere.net> wrote:

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone
> (I'm really beginning to like that Wiki)

Nice wiki entry but it doesn't answer if silicone is mixed with rubber
(latex) to make what is called "silicone rubber".

But I did find the answer here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone_rubber !

No latex. Only a similarity with rubber:
Organic rubber - carbon linkages,
silicone rubber - silicone oxygen linkages

Nice, that wiki thing!.

> I didn't know they could be hard plastics too..
> They mention silly putty, which is a silicone, and an extreme
> example of what I was getting at. I think many silicones have an
> abrupt change of properties under impact either at speed or
> pressure. Cable covering has a weak pressure resistance, silly
> putty has a poor speed resistance, and either way what happens is
> they cease to move as a fluid elastic, and will fracture like glass
> or crystal.

Lionel

2006-05-16, 9:21 pm

On Tue, 02 May 2006 15:14:37 +0100, Alex Coleman <no@no-email.com>
opined:

>Is it possible to get more flexible 13 Amp mains lead to replace those
>leads which hardly seem to bend?
>
>I guess that these "inflexible flexes" are made of tough version of PVC
>and contain and fewer but larger individual wires in the cores.
>
>Presumably having fewer cores is a cheaper way to make a mains lead. is
>this correct?

I've seem mains cable (240VAC over here) that's super flexible. The
examples I've seen use silicone rubber sheathing (which is also
exceptionally heatproof, BTW) with cores made from many more & finer
strands than usual.
Looking at the RS electronics website, (which requires a login, so I
can't quote a URL), Beldon's CYSC03.00100 is probably the style of
cable you're looking for:
----------
A continental style flexible power control cable, commonly known as
‘CY‘ type. The fine stranding of the cores combined with the tinned
copper braid produces a cable with characteristics of a flexible mains
cable with the screening properties of a signal cable. This makes the
cable ideal for uses such as automated and robotic equipment where
screening is required and the equipment may be subjected to vibration
or movement.
technical specification

Conductors Annealed copper
Sheath PVC
Braid Tinned annealed copper
Outer sheath Grey PVC
Core colours
3 core Blue, Brown, Green/Yellow
4 core Blue, Brown, Black, Green/Yellow
5 core Blue, Brown, Black, Black, Green/Yellow
7 core Green/Yellow + 6 numbered

key characteristics

csa 0·75mm2 1mm2 1·5mm2 2·5mm2
Conductor size 24/0·2 32/0·2 30/0·25 50/0·25
Current rating (A) 6 10 16 20
Overall dia. (max.)
3-core 7·2 7·6 8·2 10·1
4-core - 8·2 9·5 -
5-core - - 10·3 12?·4
7-core - - 11·1 -

Voltage ratings :
between conductor and earth 300V
between conductors 500V
Current ratings:
For further details consult IEE Regulations 16th
Edition table 4H3
Temperature ratings:
Flexing -5°C to +70°C0. Stable -20°C to +70°C
----------

You'd most likely want the 1.5mm^2 (30 strands, 16A) or 2.5mm^ (50
strands, 20A) types.

--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------

Neil J. Harris

2006-05-21, 6:21 pm

I
Cables made in the far east are less flexible at normal UK ambient
temperatures, they are fine on hot days though.
Rubber cable is available but a lot more expensive than PVC.
Companies that install cold rooms use rubber because PVC is difficult to
handle at low temperatures.
Arctic grade PVC is a good compromise but is usually blue or yellow.
Silicon rubber cable is available in 0.5mm 3-core, it is usually used
for soldering irons and is very flexible.
What application did you have in mind?

--
Neil J. Harris

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