Electrical Engineering - Need a lot of help with a subpump please...

Author

Need a lot of help with a subpump please...

noname

2006-05-22, 2:21 pm

Hi. I hope someone here can help me. My father gave me an old submersible
pump. A Gorman Rupp subpump. It's probably over 50 years old and it doesn't
work anymore. I want to test and repair it if possible.

It's a pump with no dry kill switch attached right next to the pump like we
are seeing on the newer model ( no flowtation on/off swicht. It also a pump
with a big disconnect box, in witch there are old electronic/electric
parts: there is a electrical breaker , a relay , and a capacitor.

This pump runs on 115vlt, 1 ph. It's a 2 hp pump and 28 amp

I don't have much knowledge in electricity or electronic , but I would
really like to see if this pump can work again. I know if was working fine
when I was a kid. My father stored the pump and the switch box in an
underground pit for many years and now it's all corroded and it's not
working

Ok here is a picture of the pump:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a...uce/ThePump.jpg

Now below is the picture of the switch box : Now in this switch box, the
electricity comes in from the left side of the box , it goes into a relay
and a capacitor , and comes out to the pump from the right side of the box.
One thing that may trick you is regarding the electricity coming in, I know
that usually one use the black and white wire for this but What they did
here is used the black as live and the red as neutral. The white wire seen
bended down is actually spare and not connected in any way.

Also I'm no electrician and I'm not used to see a double breaker connected
to a neutral.. ( remember what you are seeing is 115 vlt, not 220 vlt.) why
is that?

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a...heswitchbox.jpg

And here is the picture of the electrical diagram: this I'm sure will
explain all the mistary of this pump, but unfortunately I can't understand
or read this..

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a...uce/Diagram.jpg

now for the questions..

How can I test the pump to know if it's fixable? I will tell you what I
checked already: I check the breakers with my tester and they do not work
anymore. So what I did was bypassing the breaker to see if the rest of the
electronics work, and they don't. ( it's either the relay or the capacitor ,
or both that don't work imo.)

So what I did after this is connecting the 115vlt right on the pump's
black and white wire ( I believe the red wire has to do with the capacitor,
that's why I didn't check??? ) my 115 vlt was coming from a 15 amp braker .
I saw a big spark when the live wire touched the black pump's wire , so I
terminated the test right away as I thought It would trigger my home breaker
( remember my pump pulls 28 amps..)

Would it make sense to hooked the pump into my oven plug ( 40amps). By
hooking I mean bypassing all the electronics and connecting to the white and
black wire of the pump itseft? Or no sense because if the relay and
capacitor are not working, he pump won't start anyway?

In order to buy new parts for the switch box, can someone with a brain give
me some specs for a relay, a capacitor, and the discharge resistor (
connected to the capacitor, see diagram )

Also do one know if this pump is equipped with a kill switch if it ever
runs dry? Can you guess it has or not form the diagram?

Thanks for our time

Thanks for you help

you can reach me at herbeapuce@hotmail.com

Stef.

John Fields

2006-05-22, 2:21 pm

On Mon, 22 May 2006 12:05:09 -0400, "noname" <willnotwork@sorry.com>
wrote:

>In order to buy new parts for the switch box, can someone with a brain give
>me some specs for a relay, a capacitor, and the discharge resistor (
>connected to the capacitor, see diagram )

---
Not trying to be unkind, but you obviously have no clue, so someone
with a brain would tell you to get rid of the thing before you kill
yourself.

--
John Fields
Professional Circuit Designer

VWWall

2006-05-22, 3:21 pm

noname wrote:
> Hi. I hope someone here can help me. My father gave me an old submersible
> pump. A Gorman Rupp subpump. It's probably over 50 years old and it doesn't
> work anymore. I want to test and repair it if possible.

> And here is the picture of the electrical diagram: this I'm sure will
> explain all the mistary of this pump, but unfortunately I can't understand
> or read this..
>
> http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a...uce/Diagram.jpg

Be very careful in doing anything while trying to understand--you just
might kill yourself!
>
> So what I did after this is connecting the 115vlt right on the pump's
> black and white wire ( I believe the red wire has to do with the capacitor,
> that's why I didn't check??? ) my 115 vlt was coming from a 15 amp braker .
> I saw a big spark when the live wire touched the black pump's wire , so I
> terminated the test right away as I thought It would trigger my home breaker
> ( remember my pump pulls 28 amps..)

The red wire goes to the motor's starter winding. This is energized
with the start capacitor to get the motor started. The start relay then
disconnects the start winding and the motor runs on a single winding.

> Would it make sense to hooked the pump into my oven plug ( 40amps). By
> hooking I mean bypassing all the electronics and connecting to the white and
> black wire of the pump itseft? Or no sense because if the relay and
> capacitor are not working, he pump won't start anyway?

Here's where you can *really* kill yourself! The oven plug is 240V!!!

> In order to buy new parts for the switch box, can someone with a brain give
> me some specs for a relay, a capacitor, and the discharge resistor (
> connected to the capacitor, see diagram )

If you've got this far and are still breathing--STOP while you're ahead!!!

--
Virg Wall, P.E.

Oppie

2006-05-22, 4:21 pm

"noname" <willnotwork@sorry.com> wrote in message
news:Jilcg.46423$GX4.635283@wagner.videotron.net...
> Hi. I hope someone here can help me. My father gave me an old submersible
> pump. A Gorman Rupp subpump. It's probably over 50 years old and it
> doesn't work anymore. I want to test and repair it if possible.
>

My opinion, If life is sweet and you want to be around much longer, take it
to a electric motor rebuilder or someone acquainted with such equipment.
Better safe than in oblivion...

All you need is one bad gasket or seal to allow water into the motor guts.
Once that happens, insulation resistance goes to hell and you get rampant
corrosion. My gut feeling is that it is more likely worth more in scrap
value for its copper and bronze content than anything else.

Ben Miller

2006-05-22, 6:21 pm

"noname" <willnotwork@sorry.com> wrote in message
news:Jilcg.46423$GX4.635283@wagner.videotron.net...
> How can I test the pump to know if it's fixable? I will tell you what I
> checked already: I check the breakers with my tester and they do not work
> anymore. So what I did was bypassing the breaker to see if the rest of
> the electronics work, and they don't. ( it's either the relay or the
> capacitor , or both that don't work imo.)
>
> So what I did after this is connecting the 115vlt right on the pump's
> black and white wire ( I believe the red wire has to do with the
> capacitor, that's why I didn't check??? ) my 115 vlt was coming from a 15
> amp braker . I saw a big spark when the live wire touched the black
> pump's wire , so I terminated the test right away as I thought It would
> trigger my home breaker ( remember my pump pulls 28 amps..)
>
>
>
> Would it make sense to hooked the pump into my oven plug ( 40amps). By
> hooking I mean bypassing all the electronics and connecting to the white
> and black wire of the pump itseft? Or no sense because if the relay and
> capacitor are not working, he pump won't start anyway?
>
>
>
> In order to buy new parts for the switch box, can someone with a brain
> give me some specs for a relay, a capacitor, and the discharge resistor
> ( connected to the capacitor, see diagram )
>
>
>
> Also do one know if this pump is equipped with a kill switch if it ever
> runs dry? Can you guess it has or not form the diagram?
>
>
>
> Thanks for our time
>
>
>
> Thanks for you help

The electrical components are badly corroded, the motor winding is in
unknown condition, and you know nothing about electricity. Please do not
play with this, as it can kill you! The first step would be to megger the
motor winding to determine the insulation condition. If you don't know what
that means, throw the pump out and do NOT connect it to electrical power!

Regards

Ben Miller

--
Benjamin D. Miller, PE
B. MILLER ENGINEERING
www.bmillerengineering.com

noname

2006-05-22, 8:21 pm

ok ....
guys you are a bit hard on me.... ok I already knew sn oven runs on 230 volt
, I forgot to point I would only take one faze of it...
I might take your word for it and sent it to a specialist, or I might give
it a shoot myself. I'm know I won't electrocute myself with this project.
(43yom here...)I know a capacitor is a thing to treat with respect...
if you guys would answer some of my questions, and some of you already did,
I would greatly appreciate.
this pump has a special value to me...
thanks again
stef.

"Oppie" <boppie@-nospam-ludl.com> wrote in message
news:44720a7e$0$4621$6d36acad@fe5.nntpserver.com...
>
> "noname" <willnotwork@sorry.com> wrote in message
> news:Jilcg.46423$GX4.635283@wagner.videotron.net...
>
> My opinion, If life is sweet and you want to be around much longer, take
> it to a electric motor rebuilder or someone acquainted with such
> equipment. Better safe than in oblivion...
>
> All you need is one bad gasket or seal to allow water into the motor guts.
> Once that happens, insulation resistance goes to hell and you get rampant
> corrosion. My gut feeling is that it is more likely worth more in scrap
> value for its copper and bronze content than anything else.
>

ian field

2006-05-22, 8:21 pm

"Ben Miller" <benmiller@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:aK6dnZqDSoTzve_Z4p2dnA@comcast.com...
> "noname" <willnotwork@sorry.com> wrote in message
> news:Jilcg.46423$GX4.635283@wagner.videotron.net...
>
>
> The electrical components are badly corroded, the motor winding is in
> unknown condition, and you know nothing about electricity. Please do not
> play with this, as it can kill you! The first step would be to megger the
> motor winding to determine the insulation condition. If you don't know
> what that means, throw the pump out and do NOT connect it to electrical
> power!
>
> Regards
>
> Ben Miller
>
> --
> Benjamin D. Miller, PE
> B. MILLER ENGINEERING
> www.bmillerengineering.com
>

The predicted outcome might be kinder!

Salmon Egg

2006-05-22, 10:21 pm

On 5/22/06 10:13 AM, in article o0s372t5kusr9rguvnvo5lnq8lurei23a2@4ax.com,
"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 22 May 2006 12:05:09 -0400, "noname" <willnotwork@sorry.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> ---
> Not trying to be unkind, but you obviously have no clue, so someone
> with a brain would tell you to get rid of the thing before you kill
> yourself.
>

Ditto. Submersible pumps in water are just to much of a danger for clueless
tinkerers to handle. The most basic problem is how are you going to be sure
to seal the pump even if you are able repair it?

Bill
-- Ferme le Bush

TimPerry

2006-05-22, 10:21 pm

"noname" <willnotwork@sorry.com> wrote in message
news:FLqcg.59510$yN.695181@weber.videotron.net...
> ok ....
> guys you are a bit hard on me.... ok I already knew sn oven runs on 230
volt
> , I forgot to point I would only take one faze of it...
> I might take your word for it and sent it to a specialist, or I might give
> it a shoot myself. I'm know I won't electrocute myself with this project.
> (43yom here...)I know a capacitor is a thing to treat with respect...
> if you guys would answer some of my questions, and some of you already
did,
> I would greatly appreciate.
> this pump has a special value to me...
> thanks again
> stef.
>

treat the project as if you were restoring a classic car or any other
antique.

first disassemble the entire unit, taking photos at each step (so you can
refer to them upon re-assembly.

clean and refurb each piece. replace or machine new parts for one that seen
to degraded to function. (yes i know you wont be able to just order
replacement parts for this but that part of the challenge)

mark or label each piece and store in a tackle box like container or parts
bin with drawers. an electric etching tool will help.

the motor rebuild i would not even attempt myself no matter how much
sentimental value it held. i would send it out to a motor rebuild. almost
certainly the rebuilder might urge you to replace it because it is so old or
be hesitant about offering any warranty.

for the pump you probably will end up relying on the "make a gasket" gels
and goos.
you might, with patience, cut your own gaskets out of a solid sheet of
material.

as part of the cleaning process i find an ordinary dishwasher with Cascade
detergent come in handy. also brass brushes, dremmel tool with wire brush,
steel wool and emmery paper all come in handy. add a little oven cleaner
powder (Zud) and whatever other cleaners are handy (simple green, orange
blast engine cleaner).

whenever you finally decide to test the rebuilt unit please incorporate the
use of a GFI circuit breaker. if it trips you have a problem in the unit.
fix the problem. do not bypass the GFI. if you ever place it in service
power it through a GFI.

the guys are "a bit hard" on you because they, like me, get asked questions
similar to this in person time to time. when replying face to face, or even
on the phone i is easier to convey earnest conviction. many probably have
worked "under the gun" trying to restore aging equipment still in use in
industry. please believe me when i advise that "it aint gonna be easy, fast,
or cheap"

submersible[color=darkred]
guts.[color=darkred]
rampant[color=darkred]
>
>

DecaturTxCowboy

2006-05-22, 11:21 pm

noname wrote:
> This pump runs on 115vlt, 1 ph. It's a 2 hp pump and 28 amp

28 amps is what you would expect a 240 volt pump to use. Look at your
circuit breakers in your house, they are all 15 maps or less. Except for
the dryer and A/C which run off 240 and have 30 amp breakers.

2006-05-22, 11:21 pm

noname wrote:

> Hi. I hope someone here can help me. My father gave me an old
> submersible pump. A Gorman Rupp subpump. It's probably over 50 years
> old and it doesn't work anymore. I want to test and repair it if
> possible.
>

<snip all the rest>

Chiming in with all the others, don't bother. I suppose it's a bit of
nostalgia but by the description of it the best you can do is fixing up
the appearance and use as a decorative piece.

To get it back to working condition you'll have to consult a pro and
probably spend much more than it's really worth, certainly more than a
new pump would cost you.

- YD.

Oppie

2006-05-23, 10:21 am

Sorry if I was unnecessarily hard on you. Something of this power level,
submersible yet, is not recommended for a first project. Perhaps, get your
feet wet on something else (and use a Ground Fault Interrupter).

"noname" <willnotwork@sorry.com> wrote in message
news:FLqcg.59510$yN.695181@weber.videotron.net...
> ok ....
> guys you are a bit hard on me.... ok I already knew sn oven runs on 230
> volt , I forgot to point I would only take one faze of it...
> I might take your word for it and sent it to a specialist, or I might give
> it a shoot myself. I'm know I won't electrocute myself with this project.
> (43yom here...)I know a capacitor is a thing to treat with respect...
> if you guys would answer some of my questions, and some of you already
> did, I would greatly appreciate.
> this pump has a special value to me...
> thanks again
> stef.
>
>
> "Oppie" <boppie@-nospam-ludl.com> wrote in message
> news:44720a7e$0$4621$6d36acad@fe5.nntpserver.com...
>
>

Jasen Betts

2006-05-23, 12:21 pm

On 2006-05-22, noname <willnotwork@sorry.com> wrote:
> Hi. I hope someone here can help me. My father gave me an old submersible
> pump. A Gorman Rupp subpump. It's probably over 50 years old and it doesn't
> work anymore. I want to test and repair it if possible.

after ensuring the body is intact
get the insulation and windings tested
if that checks out replace all rubbing parts, bearings, glands etc
and any other perishable parts, (seals etc)

> How can I test the pump to know if it's fixable? I will tell you what I
> checked already: I check the breakers with my tester and they do not work
> anymore. So what I did was bypassing the breaker to see if the rest of the
> electronics work, and they don't. ( it's either the relay or the capacitor ,
> or both that don't work imo.)
>
> So what I did after this is connecting the 115vlt right on the pump's
> black and white wire ( I believe the red wire has to do with the capacitor,
> that's why I didn't check??? ) my 115 vlt was coming from a 15 amp braker .
> I saw a big spark when the live wire touched the black pump's wire , so I
> terminated the test right away as I thought It would trigger my home breaker
> ( remember my pump pulls 28 amps..)

dissasemble the pump, (and check what it looks like inside, half-full of
water is not a good look..)

take it into a motor repair place and get them to check the windings and
insulation, they can probably source the other bits you'll need to replace
too. (this is a 5 minute job with the motor dissasembled)

when reassembling it use new bolts if the old ones show any signs of age,
old bolts just aren't worth the hassle.

test that capacitor and the contactors

> Would it make sense to hooked the pump into my oven plug ( 40amps). By
> hooking I mean bypassing all the electronics and connecting to the white and
> black wire of the pump itseft? Or no sense because if the relay and
> capacitor are not working, he pump won't start anyway?

it probably needs the capacitor to start.

> In order to buy new parts for the switch box, can someone with a brain give
> me some specs for a relay, a capacitor, and the discharge resistor (
> connected to the capacitor, see diagram )

the details of the correct replacements are probably on a "boilerplate"
attached to the pump or the contactor box.

> Also do one know if this pump is equipped with a kill switch if it ever
> runs dry? Can you guess it has or not form the diagram?

it possibly relied on a float switch in the sump to start/stop it,

It sounds like a split-phase induction motor and they are generally low
maintenance machines, but as it's been sitting for a while a full overhaul
of the mechanical part is indicated. if the shaft-seal starts leaking two
weeks after you get it running it'll have all been for nothing.

Bye.
Jasen

noname

2006-05-23, 11:21 pm

ok thanks guys. I appreciate your help. I can deal with simple things in
electricity, like last year , I changed the electrical panel in my house for
a bigger one, and I built a few PC... but as far a making calculations for
knowing what size capacitor , etc etc, that I'm in the dark...
I will keep in mind SAFETY if I ever play the technician...I understood it
won't be fast, cheap and easy....
Regards

stef.

"TimPerry" <timperry@noaspamadelphia.net> wrote in message
news:AZ6dnTlm_8SkwO_ZnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@adelphia.com...
>
> "noname" <willnotwork@sorry.com> wrote in message
> news:FLqcg.59510$yN.695181@weber.videotron.net...
> volt
> did,
>
> treat the project as if you were restoring a classic car or any other
> antique.
>
> first disassemble the entire unit, taking photos at each step (so you can
> refer to them upon re-assembly.
>
> clean and refurb each piece. replace or machine new parts for one that
> seen
> to degraded to function. (yes i know you wont be able to just order
> replacement parts for this but that part of the challenge)
>
> mark or label each piece and store in a tackle box like container or parts
> bin with drawers. an electric etching tool will help.
>
> the motor rebuild i would not even attempt myself no matter how much
> sentimental value it held. i would send it out to a motor rebuild. almost
> certainly the rebuilder might urge you to replace it because it is so old
> or
> be hesitant about offering any warranty.
>
> for the pump you probably will end up relying on the "make a gasket" gels
> and goos.
> you might, with patience, cut your own gaskets out of a solid sheet of
> material.
>
> as part of the cleaning process i find an ordinary dishwasher with Cascade
> detergent come in handy. also brass brushes, dremmel tool with wire brush,
> steel wool and emmery paper all come in handy. add a little oven cleaner
> powder (Zud) and whatever other cleaners are handy (simple green, orange
> blast engine cleaner).
>
> whenever you finally decide to test the rebuilt unit please incorporate
> the
> use of a GFI circuit breaker. if it trips you have a problem in the unit.
> fix the problem. do not bypass the GFI. if you ever place it in service
> power it through a GFI.
>
> the guys are "a bit hard" on you because they, like me, get asked
> questions
> similar to this in person time to time. when replying face to face, or
> even
> on the phone i is easier to convey earnest conviction. many probably have
> worked "under the gun" trying to restore aging equipment still in use in
> industry. please believe me when i advise that "it aint gonna be easy,
> fast,
> or cheap"
>
>
> submersible
> guts.
> rampant
>
>

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