Electrical Engineering - Broadband power line

Author

Broadband power line

Terry

2007-01-17, 8:25 pm

Is this going to work?

My sister lives in a remote area. I jokingly tell people that they
haven't had electricity too long.

I truly don't think she will ever have anything other than dialup.

>From what I understand, satellite will do big downloads, but web
surfing is even slower than dialup.

Any other technology for remote areas?

MacRae

2007-01-17, 8:25 pm

I have never seen applications built around power line technology
actually get up off the ground and running

Satellite technology enables a fast download rate - the only problem
arises out of latency issues. She might be able to download a 500mb
file in 10mins but sending several small requests to different
webservers would result in "sluggish" web browsing.

Terry wrote:

> Is this going to work?
>
> My sister lives in a remote area. I jokingly tell people that they
> haven't had electricity too long.
>
> I truly don't think she will ever have anything other than dialup.
>
> surfing is even slower than dialup.
>
> Any other technology for remote areas?

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2007-01-18, 9:25 pm

On 17 Jan 2007 17:49:30 -0800 Terry <kilowatt@charter.net> wrote:

| Is this going to work?
|
| My sister lives in a remote area. I jokingly tell people that they
| haven't had electricity too long.
|
| I truly don't think she will ever have anything other than dialup.
|
|>From what I understand, satellite will do big downloads, but web
| surfing is even slower than dialup.
|
| Any other technology for remote areas?

BPL (broadband over power lines) will turn out to be a flop. One big
reason is the bandwidth is too limited. Another is it is vulnerable
to interference from radio transmissions (the wiring is neither twisted
nor shielded). It's also subject to legal fights by various radio
spectrum users such as ham radio operators.

BPL only exists because of a "me, too" attitude among power companies
that need to keep increasing returns to investors. What the investors
don't know is that this boondogle will flop in about 5 years, 10 at most.
All the investment (that could have gone to improving the security and
reliability of the national grid) will be wasted. Be sure your stock
investments are _not_ in electric utilities that are trying to operate
BPL networks.

Such a utility _could_ be successful being a network, information, and
entertainment provider, if they would choose to put in fiber optic on
the existing right of ways they already have. That would involve more
cost than BPL, but it could actually work if they manage it correctly.
It might even work if they don't manage it correctly, since the tendency
of the competition (cable and telco) tends to not manage it correctly.
But, of course, it would be better if they did manage it correctly.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2007-01-18-2034@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

The Streets

2007-01-23, 1:25 pm

<phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:eopb7v02mvr@news4.newsguy.com...
> On 17 Jan 2007 17:49:30 -0800 Terry <kilowatt@charter.net> wrote:
>
> | Is this going to work?
> |
> | My sister lives in a remote area. I jokingly tell people that they
> | haven't had electricity too long.
> |
> | I truly don't think she will ever have anything other than dialup.
> |
> |>From what I understand, satellite will do big downloads, but web
> | surfing is even slower than dialup.
> |
> | Any other technology for remote areas?
>
> BPL (broadband over power lines) will turn out to be a flop. One big
> reason is the bandwidth is too limited. Another is it is vulnerable
> to interference from radio transmissions (the wiring is neither twisted
> nor shielded). It's also subject to legal fights by various radio
> spectrum users such as ham radio operators.
>
> BPL only exists because of a "me, too" attitude among power companies
> that need to keep increasing returns to investors. What the investors
> don't know is that this boondogle will flop in about 5 years, 10 at most.
> All the investment (that could have gone to improving the security and
> reliability of the national grid) will be wasted. Be sure your stock
> investments are _not_ in electric utilities that are trying to operate
> BPL networks.
>
> Such a utility _could_ be successful being a network, information, and
> entertainment provider, if they would choose to put in fiber optic on
> the existing right of ways they already have. That would involve more
> cost than BPL, but it could actually work if they manage it correctly.
> It might even work if they don't manage it correctly, since the tendency
> of the competition (cable and telco) tends to not manage it correctly.
> But, of course, it would be better if they did manage it correctly.

Power transmission companies in the US have been running fibre optic
cables through their ODW (overhead drain wire) for many years.
I don't know if they sell any of this bandwidth or just use it for their
own management purposes.

Don Kelly

2007-01-24, 3:26 am

"The Streets" <streetsj.no.spam@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:Cvqth.827$p%6.12@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
> <phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
> news:eopb7v02mvr@news4.newsguy.com...
>
> Power transmission companies in the US have been running fibre optic
> cables through their ODW (overhead drain wire) for many years.
> I don't know if they sell any of this bandwidth or just use it for their
> own management purposes.

Could you clarify?
I can see optical fibre cables but not through the center of a "overhead
drain wire" . So called drain wires are often used in cables for shielding
but not for overhead lines. The ground wires used there will be most likely
ACSR.

Power companies have used power line carrier for more than 50 years for
control and relaying signals but in these the communication signal is
coupled to the power line through capacitors (and air coil inductances are
used to block signals between zones. The carrier frequency is low RF . --

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------

The Streets

2007-01-24, 5:25 pm

"Don Kelly" <dhky@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:4sCth.781076$1T2.471350@pd7urf2no...
> "The Streets" <streetsj.no.spam@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
> news:Cvqth.827$p%6.12@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>
> Could you clarify?
> I can see optical fibre cables but not through the center of a "overhead
> drain wire" . So called drain wires are often used in cables for shielding
> but not for overhead lines. The ground wires used there will be most
> likely ACSR.
>
> Power companies have used power line carrier for more than 50 years for
> control and relaying signals but in these the communication signal is
> coupled to the power line through capacitors (and air coil inductances are
> used to block signals between zones. The carrier frequency is low RF . --
>
> Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
> remove the X to answer
> ----------------------------

I could be wrong (heh, it could happen). My expertise is more in networking
than power distribution. I based my comment on discussions held in the
mid-90's with networking people at power companies in the New England area.
I understood from them that they were deploying fibre optic cables inside
the
top wires on long haul transmission lines - what they called Overhead Drain
Wires. And, that this was becoming a common practice.

Don Kelly

2007-01-26, 3:25 am

"The Streets" <streetsj.no.spam@sprintmail.com> wrote in message
news:xFOth.778$ch1.551@bigfe9...
> "Don Kelly" <dhky@shaw.ca> wrote in message
> news:4sCth.781076$1T2.471350@pd7urf2no...
>
> I could be wrong (heh, it could happen). My expertise is more in
> networking
> than power distribution. I based my comment on discussions held in the
> mid-90's with networking people at power companies in the New England
> area.
> I understood from them that they were deploying fibre optic cables inside
> the
> top wires on long haul transmission lines - what they called Overhead
> Drain
> Wires. And, that this was becoming a common practice.

I can see a fiber optic cable being hung from an overhead ground wire (which
may at times carry appreciable current-particularly surge currents in
storms) but putting the cable inside the wire means that the load bearing
part (the steel core) is compromised -getting a mechanically weaker cable.

--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------
>
>

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2007-01-26, 1:25 pm

On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:01:38 GMT Don Kelly <dhky@shaw.ca> wrote:

| I can see a fiber optic cable being hung from an overhead ground wire (which
| may at times carry appreciable current-particularly surge currents in
| storms) but putting the cable inside the wire means that the load bearing
| part (the steel core) is compromised -getting a mechanically weaker cable.

At least they don't put it inside the heating elements ... e.g. current
carrying conductors that can get hot, sag, and break the fiber. Still,
the drain wires are not so convenient for maintenance. If they put the
fibre below the power wires, there would not be so many issues when
doing any mainenance, replacement, or upgrading.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2007-01-26-1240@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Terry

2007-01-27, 3:25 am

On Jan 26, 1:42 pm, phil-news-nos...@ipal.net wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:01:38 GMT Don Kelly <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> | I can see a fiber optic cable being hung from an overhead ground wire (which
> | may at times carry appreciable current-particularly surge currents in
> | storms) but putting the cable inside the wire means that the load bearing
> | part (the steel core) is compromised -getting a mechanically weaker cable.
>
> At least they don't put it inside the heating elements ... e.g. current
> carrying conductors that can get hot, sag, and break the fiber. Still,
> the drain wires are not so convenient for maintenance. If they put the
> fibre below the power wires, there would not be so many issues when
> doing any mainenance, replacement, or upgrading.
>

I am pretty sure they have a good reason for doing it like they do.
I really wouldn't care where they put it if you could get a broadband
connection from it.

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2007-01-28, 5:25 pm

On 26 Jan 2007 20:31:32 -0800 Terry <kilowatt@charter.net> wrote:
| On Jan 26, 1:42 pm, phil-news-nos...@ipal.net wrote:
|> On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:01:38 GMT Don Kelly <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
|>
|> | I can see a fiber optic cable being hung from an overhead ground wire (which
|> | may at times carry appreciable current-particularly surge currents in
|> | storms) but putting the cable inside the wire means that the load bearing
|> | part (the steel core) is compromised -getting a mechanically weaker cable.
|>
|> At least they don't put it inside the heating elements ... e.g. current
|> carrying conductors that can get hot, sag, and break the fiber. Still,
|> the drain wires are not so convenient for maintenance. If they put the
|> fibre below the power wires, there would not be so many issues when
|> doing any mainenance, replacement, or upgrading.
|>
|
| I am pretty sure they have a good reason for doing it like they do.
| I really wouldn't care where they put it if you could get a broadband
| connection from it.

I'm sure lots of things have a "good" reason. Sadly the "good" reason is
to save money to increase profits more often than it is good engineering
practice.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2007-01-28-1523@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Don Kelly

2007-01-28, 9:25 pm

----------------------------
<phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:epj4dv1vuu@news1.newsguy.com...
> On 26 Jan 2007 20:31:32 -0800 Terry <kilowatt@charter.net> wrote:
> | On Jan 26, 1:42 pm, phil-news-nos...@ipal.net wrote:
> |> On Fri, 26 Jan 2007 04:01:38 GMT Don Kelly <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
> |>
> |> | I can see a fiber optic cable being hung from an overhead ground wire
> (which
> |> | may at times carry appreciable current-particularly surge currents in
> |> | storms) but putting the cable inside the wire means that the load
> bearing
> |> | part (the steel core) is compromised -getting a mechanically weaker
> cable.
> |>
> |> At least they don't put it inside the heating elements ... e.g. current
> |> carrying conductors that can get hot, sag, and break the fiber. Still,
> |> the drain wires are not so convenient for maintenance. If they put the
> |> fibre below the power wires, there would not be so many issues when
> |> doing any mainenance, replacement, or upgrading.
> |>
> |
> | I am pretty sure they have a good reason for doing it like they do.
> | I really wouldn't care where they put it if you could get a broadband
> | connection from it.
>
> I'm sure lots of things have a "good" reason. Sadly the "good" reason is
> to save money to increase profits more often than it is good engineering
> practice.
>
> --
> |---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
> | Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below
> |
> | first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2007-01-28-1523@ipal.net
> |
> |------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Think- why are ground wires above the live wires? Could it be that they are
intended to provide shielding -i.e. interception of direct lightning
strokes.? While these may have no effect on the fiber optics, they could
have a severe effect on devices feeding to or from the fiber optic cables.

My point is that I see nothing but hearsay evidence that this is done in
spite of the extra problems and very much extra costs involved in the
manufacture and maintenance of a cable with a fiber optic core vs a steel
core as well as the fact that it is physically located above HV wires.

I entirely agree with you regarding the common sense placement of fiber
optic or other communication cables below the power wires.

--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer

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