|
Home > Archive > Electrical Engineering > October 2007 > Hotel shower electrocuted tourist
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
Hotel shower electrocuted tourist
|
|
|
|
| Long Ranger 2007-10-26, 1:25 pm |
|
"Beachcomber" <invalid@notreal.none> wrote in message
news:4721f9d9.2749296@news.verizon.net...
> Hotel shower electrocuted tourist
>
> From BBC News:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/...sex/7062629.stm
>
> All that electricity in those European showers doesn't sound very
> safe...
>
>
>You will see more and more of that here in the states as the Mexican
>population increases. I see these guys at Home Depot buying things that
>obviously don't go together, holding parts up and trying to figure out how
>they work. Then I see the little building projects they do in their
>low-income areas, and I know the electrical work is going to be on the same
>level. I see MC cable all over the place out in the rain, and stamped metal
>boxes mounted on exterior walls, splicing with no J-box, and sometimes just
>twisted wire, no connector, Some of these guys are employed as janitors and
>groundskeepers in hotels etc. Some are asked to do "handyman" work. It
>ain't good...........................
| |
|
| From: worpylorp@mindspring.com (Long=A0Ranger)
"Beachcomber" <invalid@notreal.none> wrote in message
news:4721f9d9.2749296@news.verizon.net...
Hotel shower electrocuted tourist
From BBC News:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/...sex/7062629.stm
All that electricity in those European showers doesn't sound very
safe...
You will see more and more of that here in the states as the Mexican
population increases. I see these guys at Home Depot buying things that
obviously don't go together, holding parts up and trying to figure out
how they work. Then I see the little building projects they do in their
low-income areas, and I know the electrical work is going to be on the
same level. I see MC cable all over the place out in the rain, and
stamped metal boxes mounted on exterior walls, splicing with no J-box,
and sometimes just twisted wire, no connector, Some of these guys are
employed as janitors and groundskeepers in hotels etc. Some are asked to
do "handyman" work. It ain't good...........................
Yeah but Who's to blame - I went to do some installations & wiring for
a returning home US Navy Guy., apparently the Mexican he had doing the
job got stumped with some things - when I saw the bathrooms GFCI on the
opposite wall all plastered over and sticking out I checked the wiring
had been done all wrong in several circuits I spared the dude & ripped
the Box containing the GFCI right out of the wall - it wasn't fastened
in any way but for the Plaster - asked him if the job had been
inspected - when he said he didn't know - I told him all my jobs are
coded - gave him a fair & decent estimate and then told him he should
re-consider how work is being done,(I also saw a messy gas pipe
installation) since he had plans to bring his newlywed wife into this
apartment...
I scheduled the work pending his call - he never did.....it's a
shame..Hopefuly he moved on to a better place - I gave him enough info
to defer on his lease without penalties...The more than 5 DOB Violations
and Shoddy workmanship I pointed out to him may have helped}
we chuckled over the phone when I checked back with him. he said thanks
& he'd call me again if he ever needed me.
It's none of my business but If I ever get a call to that Bldg. again I
will have it inspected top to bottom......
Roy Q.T.
Urban Technician
[I don't make em, I just fix em]
| |
| Igor The Terrible 2007-10-28, 5:25 pm |
| On Oct 27, 1:28 pm, ROY...@webtv.net (Roy) wrote:
> From: worpyl...@mindspring.com (Long Ranger)"Beachcomber" <inva...@notreal.none> wrote in message
>
> news:4721f9d9.2749296@news.verizon.net...
> Hotel shower electrocuted tourist
> From BBC News:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/...sex/7062629.stm
>
> All that electricity in those European showers doesn't sound very
> safe...
>
> You will see more and more of that here in the states as the Mexican
> population increases. I see these guys at Home Depot buying things that
> obviously don't go together, holding parts up and trying to figure out
> how they work. Then I see the little building projects they do in their
> low-income areas, and I know the electrical work is going to be on the
> same level. I see MC cable all over the place out in the rain, and
> stamped metal boxes mounted on exterior walls, splicing with no J-box,
> and sometimes just twisted wire, no connector, Some of these guys are
> employed as janitors and groundskeepers in hotels etc. Some are asked to
> do "handyman" work. It ain't good...........................
>
> Yeah but Who's to blame - I went to do some installations & wiring for
> a returning home US Navy Guy., apparently the Mexican he had doing the
> job got stumped with some things - when I saw the bathrooms GFCI on the
> opposite wall all plastered over and sticking out I checked the wiring
> had been done all wrong in several circuits I spared the dude & ripped
> the Box containing the GFCI right out of the wall - it wasn't fastened
> in any way but for the Plaster - asked him if the job had been
> inspected - when he said he didn't know - I told him all my jobs are
> coded - gave him a fair & decent estimate and then told him he should
> re-consider how work is being done,(I also saw a messy gas pipe
> installation) since he had plans to bring his newlywed wife into this
> apartment...
>
> I scheduled the work pending his call - he never did.....it's a
> shame..Hopefuly he moved on to a better place - I gave him enough info
> to defer on his lease without penalties...The more than 5 DOB Violations
> and Shoddy workmanship I pointed out to him may have helped}
>
> we chuckled over the phone when I checked back with him. he said thanks
> & he'd call me again if he ever needed me.
>
> It's none of my business but If I ever get a call to that Bldg. again I
> will have it inspected top to bottom......
>
> Roy Q.T.
> Urban Technician
> [I don't make em, I just fix em]
It's the same here in central FL. You would not believe some of the
crap I come across on a regular basis. For a while, we've had fires
due to "faulty wiring"--especially in apartments--on a routine basis.
A lot of houses went up in smoke as well and for the same reason. I
just feel sorry for the folks who can't afford to hire licensed
contractors and are literally getting burned in more ways than one.
Im guess this is something we're gonna have to live with going forward.
| |
| Long Ranger 2007-10-28, 5:25 pm |
|
"Igor The Terrible" <igor_the_terrible@mad.scientist.com> wrote in message
news:1193598040.377314.71840@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> On Oct 27, 1:28 pm, ROY...@webtv.net (Roy) wrote:
>
>
> It's the same here in central FL. You would not believe some of the
> crap I come across on a regular basis. For a while, we've had fires
> due to "faulty wiring"--especially in apartments--on a routine basis.
> A lot of houses went up in smoke as well and for the same reason. I
> just feel sorry for the folks who can't afford to hire licensed
> contractors and are literally getting burned in more ways than one.
> Im guess this is something we're gonna have to live with going forward.
Yes, I predict a rapid erosion of our building codes as more and more
ignorant peasants filter in. We will be unable to enforce codes based on the
sheer amount of enforcement that will be required. Also, since the majority
of enforcement issues will be centered on this one group, they will feel
compelled to make a case against "selective enforcement". Ditto SMOG and
traffic laws and highway vehicle safety standards in much the same way.
| |
| Andrew Gabriel 2007-10-28, 5:25 pm |
| In article <13i9re8n1gdfhca@corp.supernews.com>,
"Long Ranger" <worpylorp@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> "Igor The Terrible" <igor_the_terrible@mad.scientist.com> wrote in message
> news:1193598040.377314.71840@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>
> Yes, I predict a rapid erosion of our building codes as more and more
> ignorant peasants filter in. We will be unable to enforce codes based on the
> sheer amount of enforcement that will be required. Also, since the majority
> of enforcement issues will be centered on this one group, they will feel
> compelled to make a case against "selective enforcement". Ditto SMOG and
> traffic laws and highway vehicle safety standards in much the same way.
I guess I'm still rather amazed that you don't improve the designs
of your wiring accessories and techniques to make them safer and
less liable to start fires. We used similar techniques until about
60-70 years ago, but then abandoned them for safer techniques and
improved wiring accessory designs. There's fierce competition between
our manufacturers for improving safety, which has ensured a continuous
program of improvement since we moved away from wirenuts well over
half a century ago (although they were never commonly used in the UK).
There's a very large amount of domestic wiring (the majority other
than the initial install) which is DIY or done by untrained odd-
job men, and just doesn't cause the sorts of problems you seem to
have. Our accessories are designed to be safe in untrained hands
(which also makes them safer in trained hands).
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
| |
| ChairmanOfTheBored 2007-10-28, 8:25 pm |
| On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 12:00:40 -0700, Igor The Terrible
<igor_the_terrible@mad.scientist.com> wrote:
>On Oct 27, 1:28 pm, ROY...@webtv.net (Roy) wrote:
>
>
>It's the same here in central FL. You would not believe some of the
>crap I come across on a regular basis. For a while, we've had fires
>due to "faulty wiring"--especially in apartments--on a routine basis.
>A lot of houses went up in smoke as well and for the same reason. I
>just feel sorry for the folks who can't afford to hire licensed
>contractors and are literally getting burned in more ways than one.
>Im guess this is something we're gonna have to live with going forward.
Leave it to the royboy retard to fuck up the link.
| |
| ChairmanOfTheBored 2007-10-28, 8:25 pm |
| On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 13:15:26 -0700, "Long Ranger"
<worpylorp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>Yes, I predict a rapid erosion of our building codes as more and more
>ignorant peasants filter in. We will be unable to enforce codes based on the
>sheer amount of enforcement that will be required. Also, since the majority
>of enforcement issues will be centered on this one group, they will feel
>compelled to make a case against "selective enforcement". Ditto SMOG and
>traffic laws and highway vehicle safety standards in much the same way.
>
We had a guy that got fried on a bus stop bench a few years back. Seems
some electrician retard either deliberately or not hooked up the 600V
street lamp feed to the bus stop's shelter frame, which was loosely
fixtured to the concrete slab it was on. Kid sat down on the bench,
which was embedded in the concrete, and leaned back against the metal
net, which was the back of the shelter, and that was all she wrote.
San Diego, California was where it happened, but it has also happened
in other states.
http://www.electrical-contractor.ne...%20Document.htm
| |
| phil-news-nospam@ipal.net 2007-10-28, 9:25 pm |
| On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:11:42 -0700 ChairmanOfTheBored <RUBored@crackasmile.org> wrote:
| On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 13:15:26 -0700, "Long Ranger"
| <worpylorp@mindspring.com> wrote:
|
|>
|>Yes, I predict a rapid erosion of our building codes as more and more
|>ignorant peasants filter in. We will be unable to enforce codes based on the
|>sheer amount of enforcement that will be required. Also, since the majority
|>of enforcement issues will be centered on this one group, they will feel
|>compelled to make a case against "selective enforcement". Ditto SMOG and
|>traffic laws and highway vehicle safety standards in much the same way.
|>
|
| We had a guy that got fried on a bus stop bench a few years back. Seems
| some electrician retard either deliberately or not hooked up the 600V
| street lamp feed to the bus stop's shelter frame, which was loosely
| fixtured to the concrete slab it was on. Kid sat down on the bench,
| which was embedded in the concrete, and leaned back against the metal
| net, which was the back of the shelter, and that was all she wrote.
|
| San Diego, California was where it happened, but it has also happened
| in other states.
|
| http://www.electrical-contractor.ne...%20Document.htm
According to the article, it was a "5000 volt short", presumably due to
the way underrated transformer, combined with lack of proper grounding.
Once you have that much voltage and no grounding, all bets are off.
--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2007-10-28-2019@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|
| |
| Long Ranger 2007-10-29, 3:25 am |
|
"Andrew Gabriel" <andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4724f4f5$0$515$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk...
> In article <13i9re8n1gdfhca@corp.supernews.com>,
> "Long Ranger" <worpylorp@mindspring.com> writes:
>
> I guess I'm still rather amazed that you don't improve the designs
> of your wiring accessories and techniques to make them safer and
> less liable to start fires. We used similar techniques until about
> 60-70 years ago, but then abandoned them for safer techniques and
> improved wiring accessory designs. There's fierce competition between
> our manufacturers for improving safety, which has ensured a continuous
> program of improvement since we moved away from wirenuts well over
> half a century ago (although they were never commonly used in the UK).
> There's a very large amount of domestic wiring (the majority other
> than the initial install) which is DIY or done by untrained odd-
> job men, and just doesn't cause the sorts of problems you seem to
> have. Our accessories are designed to be safe in untrained hands
> (which also makes them safer in trained hands).
>
> --
> Andrew Gabriel
> [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
So does that include shower heads? How about a couple of examples of this
rarified gear you are describing? I'd like a bit more info on how all this
compares to our stuff here in the states.
| |
| ChairmanOfTheBored 2007-10-29, 9:25 am |
| On Sun, 28 Oct 2007 23:19:56 -0700, "Long Ranger"
<worpylorp@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>"Andrew Gabriel" <andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:4724f4f5$0$515$5a6aecb4@news.aaisp.net.uk...
>
>So does that include shower heads? How about a couple of examples of this
>rarified gear you are describing? I'd like a bit more info on how all this
>compares to our stuff here in the states.
>
More likely an improperly wired inline hot water set-up that had a
catastrophic short.
240 Volts being fed down a stream of water onto a guy that is standing
in a pool of water sitting on a grounded slab. He reaches up to adjust
the shower head, and... ZZZAAAAAPPP!
| |
| charles 2007-10-29, 9:25 am |
| In article <4dcbi3p3987j6pjl3cn11hsvpn14u3q4lg@4ax.com>,
ChairmanOfTheBored <RUBored@crackasmile.org> wrote:
> More likely an improperly wired inline hot water set-up that had a
> catastrophic short.
> 240 Volts being fed down a stream of water onto a guy that is standing
> in a pool of water sitting on a grounded slab. He reaches up to adjust
> the shower head, and... ZZZAAAAAPPP!
Not the real story. The shower curtain rail was loose and moved sideways
into a light fitting which was not securely attached to the ceiling.
The shower is only relevant as a source of water.
--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11
| |
| Beachcomber 2007-10-29, 5:25 pm |
|
>
>Not the real story. The shower curtain rail was loose and moved sideways
>into a light fitting which was not securely attached to the ceiling.
>
>The shower is only relevant as a source of water.
I still hold the opinion when it comes to electricity, it is safer to
take a shower in the US when compared to other countries in the world
who insist on having:
1. Electrical heaters for showers INSIDE the bathroom.
2. 240 volts instead of the safer 120 volts used in North America.
3. Codes that do not mandate Ground fault interrupters or RCD's for
bathroom appliance circuits.
4. Unnecessary step-down transformers for small electric shavers, but
the banning of modern convenience outlets for other modern appliances
in the bathroom (such as hair dryers).
5. Antiquated and potentially unsafe pull chain lighting fixtures.
6. Excessive and expensive bonding requirements (which appear to be
strictly because of the higher 240V utilization voltage) whereas a
perfectly safe installation in the US is accomplished with a 120V GFI
circuit. This also allows in-bathroom convenience outlets for
multiple appliances, such as hair dryers, curling irons, electric
toothbrushes and (inside the bathroom) wall mounted switches for
lights.
Anyone is welcome to dispute these points. I'd like to hear the
opposing arguments.
Beachcomber
| |
| Palindrome 2007-10-29, 5:25 pm |
| Beachcomber wrote:
>
> I still hold the opinion when it comes to electricity, it is safer to
> take a shower in the US when compared to other countries in the world
> who insist on having:
>
> 1. Electrical heaters for showers INSIDE the bathroom.
If the heater is adequately mechanically protected, I don't see how it
matters whether it is in the bathroom or out of it - the electric shock
risk will be via the pipework (and a 10 foot long metal pipe between
heater and outlet is much the same risk as a 1 foot long one).
>
> 2. 240 volts instead of the safer 120 volts used in North America.
It allows the use of an on-demand 10kW shower heater, with none of the
losses associated with a remote heated tank.
>
> 3. Codes that do not mandate Ground fault interrupters or RCD's for
> bathroom appliance circuits.
>
With the bonding that is mandated and the prohibition of other than very
low voltage portable electrical equipment, there really is no need for
(technically les reliable) GFCI protection.
> 4. Unnecessary step-down transformers for small electric shavers, but
> the banning of modern convenience outlets for other modern appliances
> in the bathroom (such as hair dryers).
Personally, I prefer sitting down to use a hair drier. Something not
possible, other than on the throne, in a modern house's (tiny) bathroom.
If the bathroom is big enough, hair driers and other portable electrical
equipment are fine and allowed..
>
> 5. Antiquated and potentially unsafe pull chain lighting fixtures.
I've only seen pull cord - "pull chain" is associated with
non-electrical flow control.
>
> 6. Excessive and expensive bonding requirements (which appear to be
> strictly because of the higher 240V utilization voltage) whereas a
> perfectly safe installation in the US is accomplished with a 120V GFI
> circuit. This also allows in-bathroom convenience outlets for
> multiple appliances, such as hair dryers, curling irons, electric
> toothbrushes and (inside the bathroom) wall mounted switches for
> lights.
Bonding is a one-off requirement at installation which adds very little
to the cost. Tooth brushes can be used with the shaver transformer
outlet (all my shaver outlet is used for). Anything else - I refer you
to my comment about sitting down!
>
> Anyone is welcome to dispute these points. I'd like to hear the
> opposing arguments.
Personally, I do love an "old fashioned" huge bathroom with room to
swing an adult lion. However, unless visiting someone's stately home,
mostly all one gets is a small room with insufficient room to swing a
kitten. So not being able to stay and use portable electrical equipment
isn't a great handicap. The earth bonding is extremely reassuring - it
doesn't rely on a quite mechanically and electrically complex GFCI to
work as designed in order to be protected. Who actually checks their
GFCI at regular intervals, to ensure it is still functioning as it should?
In these days of working wives (and husbands) the typical home is empty
most of the day. All the family want a shower in the morning at about
the same time and ditto in the evening. An instant-heat electric shower
never runs out of hot water. It doesn't keep water hot unnecessarily.
--
Sue
|
|
|
|
|