Electrical Engineering - How have you customized your life -- electronically?

Author

How have you customized your life -- electronically?

DaveC

2007-04-20, 3:25 am

One regular poster here has designed a microcontroller-based, networked (
(remotely accessible), whole-home climate control monitoring system
(heating-AC/hot h2o/heat exchangers/the whole works). Others have modified
their digital toaster (I'm not mentioning names... (c: )

How has your profession (or hobby) leaked into your everyday life? What
customizations or applications have you put electronics to that makes your
life easier and/or more fun?
--
DaveC
me@bogusdomain.net
This is an invalid return address
Please reply in the news group

Long Ranger

2007-04-20, 3:25 am

"DaveC" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:0001HW.C24D8A1300926E2DF01826C8@news.sf.sbcglobal.net...
> One regular poster here has designed a microcontroller-based, networked (
> (remotely accessible), whole-home climate control monitoring system
> (heating-AC/hot h2o/heat exchangers/the whole works). Others have modified
> their digital toaster (I'm not mentioning names... (c: )
>
> How has your profession (or hobby) leaked into your everyday life? What
> customizations or applications have you put electronics to that makes your
> life easier and/or more fun?
> --
> DaveC
> me@bogusdomain.net
> This is an invalid return address
> Please reply in the news group
>
About the only thing I've done lately is add a large, (can't remember size)
capacitor to the input of my inverter. It enables it to hold the microwave
oven I use it for, barely. I recently put a set of digital transceivers in
the inlaws barn, about 4 miles from the house, so they could monitor the
intrusion alarm.

John Larkin

2007-04-20, 3:25 am

jcomeau_ictx

2007-04-20, 3:25 am

On Apr 19, 10:05 pm, DaveC <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> One regular poster here has designed a microcontroller-based, networked (
> (remotely accessible), whole-home climate control monitoring system
> (heating-AC/hot h2o/heat exchangers/the whole works). Others have modified
> their digital toaster (I'm not mentioning names... (c: )
>
> How has your profession (or hobby) leaked into your everyday life? What
> customizations or applications have you put electronics to that makes your
> life easier and/or more fun?

Like Long Ranger, I live off-grid, and anything at my place has to be
low-wattage. I'm working right now on programming devices to (1) run
my 12V beer cooler only when the voltage is above some safe setpoint,
say 12.2; pump the water for my indoor garden when the sensor is dry;
flash the (homemade LED) rope light to indicate my shebeen is open,
stuff like that. I've got a Picstart 2 and Futurlec ATTINY2313
development boards, and an ARM board from Coridium on order, not sure
which one will end up being the best choice. They're all way overkill,
really, but they offer the possibility of remote access which is nice.

Leonard Caillouet

2007-04-20, 9:25 am

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:3mgg2318n2j0ilndkt7bdjn34i6fubacj6@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:05:24 GMT, DaveC <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
> Working with electronics all day, I want nothing to do with it in my
> time off. I want all my household appliances to be as simple, dumb,
> reliable, and analog as possible. I'm comfortable with simple, old-gen
> PC applications because they work and are predictable.
>
> We push technology only in those places where it really pays off. If
> there's no big benefit, stick the the stuff that's known to work.
>
> John

I feel the same way. Stuff that needs work at home sits for months. I have
very basic stuff that does what we need and don't spend much effort at home
on electronics.

Leonard

Palindrome

2007-04-20, 9:25 am

Leonard Caillouet wrote:
> "John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
> news:3mgg2318n2j0ilndkt7bdjn34i6fubacj6@4ax.com...
>
>
>
> I feel the same way. Stuff that needs work at home sits for months. I have
> very basic stuff that does what we need and don't spend much effort at home
> on electronics.
>

I rather like garage doors that don't have to be manually opened in the
rain, a car that is warm to get into- first thing on a Winter's morning,
to know what is in my huge freezer and what is reaching its "use by"
date, to run a bath without standing over the taps and burning/freezing
my hand and gets the temperature right and stays at that temperature,
doorlocks that lock themselves at night - so I don't have to go and
check in my jim jams, lights that switch on when needed and off when
not, etc, etc...

I'd much rather spend a little bit of time once than have to put up with
some thing as it is, year after year after year... YMMV.

--
Sue

Long Ranger

2007-04-20, 9:25 am

"jcomeau_ictx" <john.comeau@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1177043948.728830.319330@y5g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 19, 10:05 pm, DaveC <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> Like Long Ranger, I live off-grid, and anything at my place has to be
> low-wattage. I'm working right now on programming devices to (1) run
> my 12V beer cooler only when the voltage is above some safe setpoint,
> say 12.2; pump the water for my indoor garden when the sensor is dry;
> flash the (homemade LED) rope light to indicate my shebeen is open,
> stuff like that. I've got a Picstart 2 and Futurlec ATTINY2313
> development boards, and an ARM board from Coridium on order, not sure
> which one will end up being the best choice. They're all way overkill,
> really, but they offer the possibility of remote access which is nice.
>
Actually, I don't live "off-grid". I use the inverter in my service van to
run the oven that heats my lunch, and dinner, if I'm out late. Van is too
small for a decent sized generator, and I can't bring myself to eat fast
food.....

meow2222@care2.com

2007-04-20, 9:25 am

On 20 Apr, 05:38, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

> We push technology only in those places where it really pays off. If
> there's no big benefit, stick the the stuff that's known to work.
>
> John

Most often the benefit is reduced manufacturing costs, but once you
already own the goods those dont come into it.

Marketing depts say otherwise of course.

NT

meow2222@care2.com

2007-04-20, 9:25 am

On 20 Apr, 05:05, DaveC <m...@privacy.net> wrote:

> One regular poster here has designed a microcontroller-based, networked (
> (remotely accessible), whole-home climate control monitoring system
> (heating-AC/hot h2o/heat exchangers/the whole works). Others have modified
> their digital toaster (I'm not mentioning names... (c: )
>
> How has your profession (or hobby) leaked into your everyday life? What
> customizations or applications have you put electronics to that makes your
> life easier and/or more fun?

The anaesthetic machine I made certainly made life easier. Not exactly
an every day use thing though

Jim Thompson

2007-04-20, 9:25 am

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:38:54 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:05:24 GMT, DaveC <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>Working with electronics all day, I want nothing to do with it in my
>time off. I want all my household appliances to be as simple, dumb,
>reliable, and analog as possible. I'm comfortable with simple, old-gen
>PC applications because they work and are predictable.
>
>We push technology only in those places where it really pays off. If
>there's no big benefit, stick the the stuff that's known to work.
>
>John

I used to design and build (from components, not kits) my own audio
amplifiers, but I don't have time for it anymore.

The only thing I've done lately is add a "signal combiner" to my
whole-house video system.

This allows me to insert a different source of Channel 4 (from what
comes off the cable) into my distribution amplifier.

But it took TWO of the Tru-Spec SC-4's in series to get good signal
without cross-mod....

_____
| |-----> TO DIGITAL CABLE BOX
CABLE >---| |
| |
|_____|----+
SPLITTER |
| _____
+-|IN | _____ _______
| |-----|IN | | |---->
| | | |-----| |---->
GND-TERM-|4____| | | | |---->
SC-4 +-|4____| | |---->
| SC-4 | |---->
| | |---->
| | |---->
CH4 FROM DIGITAL CABLE BOX >---+ |_______|---->
DISTRIBUTION
AMPLIFIER

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

ehsjr

2007-04-20, 1:25 pm

DaveC wrote:
> One regular poster here has designed a microcontroller-based, networked (
> (remotely accessible), whole-home climate control monitoring system
> (heating-AC/hot h2o/heat exchangers/the whole works). Others have modified
> their digital toaster (I'm not mentioning names... (c: )
>
> How has your profession (or hobby) leaked into your everyday life? What
> customizations or applications have you put electronics to that makes your
> life easier and/or more fun?

Three "mandatories":
Remote controlled motor driven window opener/closer for a
window that is very difficult to reach, remote control for
whole house fan, filters for supply to motion sensor light.
(The damn thing, once installed, prevented my X-10 system
from working, until I made the filter. Same thing happened
when I plugged in a rechargeable tooth brush. Go figure.
If you have one, drag an AM radio close to it while it's
charging - lots of noise.)

Why do they call it man-datory when it's the wife that
makes it so? :-)

Ed

James Sweet

2007-04-20, 1:25 pm

>
> I rather like garage doors that don't have to be manually opened in the
> rain, a car that is warm to get into- first thing on a Winter's morning,
> to know what is in my huge freezer and what is reaching its "use by"
> date, to run a bath without standing over the taps and burning/freezing
> my hand and gets the temperature right and stays at that temperature,
> doorlocks that lock themselves at night - so I don't have to go and
> check in my jim jams, lights that switch on when needed and off when
> not, etc, etc...
>
>
> I'd much rather spend a little bit of time once than have to put up with
> some thing as it is, year after year after year... YMMV.
>

I've always been in a bit of a split. On one hand I like things to be
simple and elegant, I like older cars, basic appliances, that sort of
thing, but on the other hand electronics, mechanics, engineering, etc is
what I've always been most passionate about and I love to play with
technology, new or old, and have always been attracted to fancy gadgets
if only to marvel at the engineering. I can certainly do without things
like cell phones, PDAs, and other junk that will be a distraction but I
like modern conveniences, particularly if I've built them myself.

Palindrome

2007-04-20, 5:25 pm

James Sweet wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I've always been in a bit of a split. On one hand I like things to be
> simple and elegant, I like older cars, basic appliances, that sort of
> thing, but on the other hand electronics, mechanics, engineering, etc is
> what I've always been most passionate about and I love to play with
> technology, new or old, and have always been attracted to fancy gadgets
> if only to marvel at the engineering. I can certainly do without things
> like cell phones, PDAs, and other junk that will be a distraction but I
> like modern conveniences, particularly if I've built them myself.

You need to be very careful with those modern conveniences - I hear some
of the latest (Japanese) ones catch fire during the warm air dry phase...

--
Sue

qrk

2007-04-20, 5:25 pm

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:38:54 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:05:24 GMT, DaveC <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>Working with electronics all day, I want nothing to do with it in my
>time off. I want all my household appliances to be as simple, dumb,
>reliable, and analog as possible. I'm comfortable with simple, old-gen
>PC applications because they work and are predictable.
>
>We push technology only in those places where it really pays off. If
>there's no big benefit, stick the the stuff that's known to work.
>
>John

I'm with John on this. At home, things are very low tech.- easy to
use, easy to fix. My Rolodex never needs battery replacement, erasable
if entries are written in pencil, easy to add notes, and easy to
install more "memory". My slide rule still works after 35 years,
doesn't need batteries, and I can spill drinks on it without harming
it. Much of my digital photo album stuff is manipulated by command
line tools unless I need to touch-up images. Still use old DOS Orcad
SDT at work because none of the GUI schematic programs are pleasant to
use and SDT doesn't crash. Still use a compass, map, and occasionally
an altimeter when going in the outback. Use my eyes to figure out
where fish are. Technology is, many times, a PITA!

---
Mark

pfjw@aol.com

2007-04-20, 5:25 pm

On Apr 20, 12:05 am, DaveC <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> One regular poster here has designed a microcontroller-based, networked (
> (remotely accessible), whole-home climate control monitoring system
> (heating-AC/hot h2o/heat exchangers/the whole works). Others have modified
> their digital toaster (I'm not mentioning names... (c: )
>
> How has your profession (or hobby) leaked into your everyday life? What
> customizations or applications have you put electronics to that makes your
> life easier and/or more fun?
> --
> DaveC
> m...@bogusdomain.net
> This is an invalid return address
> Please reply in the news group

Mpffff... other than having a vintage radio and vintage stereo for
every room in the house including the larger closets (not quite, but
pretty close), not much.

Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA

Michael A. Terrell

2007-04-20, 5:25 pm

qrk wrote:
>
> Technology is, many times, a PITA!

You're not supposed to sit on it!

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

DJ Delorie

2007-04-20, 5:25 pm

DaveC <me@privacy.net> writes:
> How has your profession (or hobby) leaked into your everyday life?

I designed a microcontroller-based, networked (remotely accessible),
whole-home climate control and monitoring system (heating, AC,
humidity, the whole works).

Oh wait, maybe that's me you're referring to? ;-)

Don Kelly

2007-04-21, 3:25 am

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:3mgg2318n2j0ilndkt7bdjn34i6fubacj6@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:05:24 GMT, DaveC <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
> Working with electronics all day, I want nothing to do with it in my
> time off. I want all my household appliances to be as simple, dumb,
> reliable, and analog as possible. I'm comfortable with simple, old-gen
> PC applications because they work and are predictable.
>
> We push technology only in those places where it really pays off. If
> there's no big benefit, stick the the stuff that's known to work.
>
> John
>
Goodness me- no "electronic toaster" for you. I bet that you still don't
have a 4 HP. 120V,15A "electronic" lawnmower as well.
You, sir, are not meeting the expectations of the modern advertising world.

Thanks- it is good to see common sense.--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------

John Larkin

2007-04-21, 1:25 pm

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 05:30:59 GMT, "Don Kelly" <dhky@shaw.ca> wrote:

>"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
>news:3mgg2318n2j0ilndkt7bdjn34i6fubacj6@4ax.com...
>Goodness me- no "electronic toaster" for you.

We do have a retro-look electronic toaster, and it often does stupid
things, like refusing to stay down when it's in a weird state. The fix
is to unplug it for 5 seconds or so to reset whatever bizarre state
it's managed to get itself into. Mechanical toasters don't do that,
and toast better too. DGMS on the states and menus of the new
microwave. A proper appliance has two states: standing up, and lying
on its side.

>I bet that you still don't
>have a 4 HP. 120V,15A "electronic" lawnmower as well.

One of the things I like about San Francisco is the almost universal
lack of lawns. And air conditioners. When I lived in New Orleans, if
you didn't mow the grass twice a week, it would grow so tall the mower
would bounce off. And after mowing the lawn for an hour in the sun,
you *needed* the air conditioning.

>You, sir, are not meeting the expectations of the modern advertising world.

It's weird that the prime use for billion-transistor chips and
gigaflop processing turns out to be stupid, violent video games and
watching NASCAR crashes on giant plasma displays.

>
>Thanks- it is good to see common sense.--

Good, simple things endure. Like me!

John

Richard Henry

2007-04-21, 1:25 pm

On Apr 21, 7:42 am, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 05:30:59 GMT, "Don Kelly" <d...@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> We do have a retro-look electronic toaster, and it often does stupid
> things, like refusing to stay down when it's in a weird state. The fix
> is to unplug it for 5 seconds or so to reset whatever bizarre state
> it's managed to get itself into. Mechanical toasters don't do that,
> and toast better too. DGMS on the states and menus of the new
> microwave. A proper appliance has two states: standing up, and lying
> on its side.
>
>
> One of the things I like about San Francisco is the almost universal
> lack of lawns. And air conditioners. When I lived in New Orleans, if
> you didn't mow the grass twice a week, it would grow so tall the mower
> would bounce off. And after mowing the lawn for an hour in the sun,
> you *needed* the air conditioning.
>
>
> It's weird that the prime use for billion-transistor chips and
> gigaflop processing turns out to be stupid, violent video games and
> watching NASCAR crashes on giant plasma displays.
>
>
>
>
> Good, simple things endure. Like me!
>
> John- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

A couple of years ago I got an electronic coffee maker as a gift.
When it works right, it makes really good coffee in small amounts.
However, I have had a couple of problems.

Soon after I got it, I dropped the water container while filling it
(it lifts off so it can be filled at the sink or wherever your best
source of water is). I broke off the little check valve at the
bottom, so all the water woulr just run out at once.

After that was replaced, it became apparent that it is insane. There
are two buttons on the device to allow a large cup or a small cup of
coffee to be delivered. There is also a cleaning mode that empties
the entire water container (to be activated when no coffee cartridge
was in place). However, I could not be sure that the machine would do
as asked, so I always had to have an extra-large joke coffee cup in
the machine when making coffee.

The machine sits on a storage shelf now unused, and I buy pre-mixed
bottles of Starbucks' Frappacino for my home coffee needs.

Richard Henry

2007-04-21, 1:25 pm

On Apr 19, 9:05 pm, DaveC <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> One regular poster here has designed a microcontroller-based, networked (
> (remotely accessible), whole-home climate control monitoring system
> (heating-AC/hot h2o/heat exchangers/the whole works). Others have modified
> their digital toaster (I'm not mentioning names... (c: )
>
> How has your profession (or hobby) leaked into your everyday life? What
> customizations or applications have you put electronics to that makes your
> life easier and/or more fun?

I have installed two Radio Shack motion detector light systems, one
over the garage door and one to replace the front entry light.

I have an unfinished project (waiting for my next retirement, layoff,
or firing) to build a PIC-based lawn sprinkler controller that will
link to a PC by some means (USB, serial port, wireless) and allow me
to set watering schedules by a graphical calendar program running in
the PC.

Jim Thompson

2007-04-21, 1:25 pm

On 21 Apr 2007 08:31:39 -0700, Richard Henry <pomerado@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[snip]
>
>A couple of years ago I got an electronic coffee maker as a gift.
>When it works right, it makes really good coffee in small amounts.
>However, I have had a couple of problems.
>
>Soon after I got it, I dropped the water container while filling it
>(it lifts off so it can be filled at the sink or wherever your best
>source of water is). I broke off the little check valve at the
>bottom, so all the water woulr just run out at once.

Klutz ?:-)

>
>After that was replaced, it became apparent that it is insane. There
>are two buttons on the device to allow a large cup or a small cup of
>coffee to be delivered. There is also a cleaning mode that empties
>the entire water container (to be activated when no coffee cartridge
>was in place). However, I could not be sure that the machine would do
>as asked, so I always had to have an extra-large joke coffee cup in
>the machine when making coffee.

So you admit you're a non-technical person? I manage to use the two
buttons to control five different mug sizes.

I love my Keurig coffee machine. My wife prefers tea and I prefer
near-espresso-strength coffee. It serves us well.

>
>The machine sits on a storage shelf now unused, and I buy pre-mixed
>bottles of Starbucks' Frappacino for my home coffee needs.

Yeccch!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Larkin

2007-04-21, 1:25 pm

On 21 Apr 2007 08:31:39 -0700, Richard Henry <pomerado@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>
>A couple of years ago I got an electronic coffee maker as a gift.
>When it works right, it makes really good coffee in small amounts.
>However, I have had a couple of problems.
>
>Soon after I got it, I dropped the water container while filling it
>(it lifts off so it can be filled at the sink or wherever your best
>source of water is). I broke off the little check valve at the
>bottom, so all the water woulr just run out at once.
>
>After that was replaced, it became apparent that it is insane. There
>are two buttons on the device to allow a large cup or a small cup of
>coffee to be delivered. There is also a cleaning mode that empties
>the entire water container (to be activated when no coffee cartridge
>was in place). However, I could not be sure that the machine would do
>as asked, so I always had to have an extra-large joke coffee cup in
>the machine when making coffee.
>
>The machine sits on a storage shelf now unused, and I buy pre-mixed
>bottles of Starbucks' Frappacino for my home coffee needs.

We have a steel kettle, a cute yellow porcelain coffee pot (I collect
coffee pots) and a ceramic drip cone. With a bag of Peet's coffee and
the local Hetch Hetchy water, it makes as good a cuppa as you can get
anywhere in the world, which is approximately 10 times better than you
can get anywhere in Britain.

But there's a trick: before you put the Mellita filter into the drip
cone, place a toothpick sideways in the bottom of the cone. That keeps
the filter from plugging the outlet hole and it drips much faster, and
faster dripping makes better coffee. After, we compost the used
coffee, the filter, and the toothpick.

John

John Larkin

2007-04-21, 1:25 pm

On 21 Apr 2007 08:37:17 -0700, Richard Henry <pomerado@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Apr 19, 9:05 pm, DaveC <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>I have installed two Radio Shack motion detector light systems, one
>over the garage door and one to replace the front entry light.
>
>I have an unfinished project (waiting for my next retirement, layoff,
>or firing) to build a PIC-based lawn sprinkler controller that will
>link to a PC by some means (USB, serial port, wireless) and allow me
>to set watering schedules by a graphical calendar program running in
>the PC.

Our garden has a drip system with one 24 volt solenoid valve wired to
a hand-twist mechanical timer switch. It takes about 400 milliseconds
to give it a twist and get it going; twist harder if you want more
water. No programming, and it's been absolutely reliable for about 10
years now.

John

Richard Henry

2007-04-21, 1:25 pm

On Apr 21, 9:53 am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-
Web-Site.com> wrote:
> On 21 Apr 2007 08:31:39 -0700, Richard Henry <pomer...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>
>
>
>
> Klutz ?:-)
>
>
>
>
> So you admit you're a non-technical person? I manage to use the two
> buttons to control five different mug sizes.
>
> I love my Keurig coffee machine. My wife prefers tea and I prefer
> near-espresso-strength coffee. It serves us well.
>
>
> Yeccch!

Mine is not a Keurig. Maybe I'll look for one.

Richard Henry

2007-04-21, 1:25 pm

On Apr 21, 10:09 am, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
> On 21 Apr 2007 08:37:17 -0700, Richard Henry <pomer...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Our garden has a drip system with one 24 volt solenoid valve wired to
> a hand-twist mechanical timer switch. It takes about 400 milliseconds
> to give it a twist and get it going; twist harder if you want more
> water. No programming, and it's been absolutely reliable for about 10
> years now.
>
> John- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

My "new" (it replaced the 2 80's-vintage 6-station controllers that
came with the house and never worked reliably) 12-station controller
is now in the "Off" position, where it will be for about a week since
we are having a rainy weekend.

Jim Thompson

2007-04-21, 5:25 pm

On 21 Apr 2007 10:58:40 -0700, Richard Henry <pomerado@hotmail.com>
wrote:

>On Apr 21, 9:53 am, Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-I...@My-
>Web-Site.com> wrote:
>
>Mine is not a Keurig. Maybe I'll look for one.
>

There's a newer version than mine, with _3_ cup size buttons.

Keurig is a "K-cup" cartridge-type of machine.

There are other brands that use paper-enclosed coffee inserts. These
dry out quickly, losing flavor.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

tersono

2007-04-21, 5:25 pm

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:05:24 GMT, DaveC <me@privacy.net> wrote:

>One regular poster here has designed a microcontroller-based, networked (
>(remotely accessible), whole-home climate control monitoring system
>(heating-AC/hot h2o/heat exchangers/the whole works). Others have modified
>their digital toaster (I'm not mentioning names... (c: )
>
>How has your profession (or hobby) leaked into your everyday life? What
>customizations or applications have you put electronics to that makes your
>life easier and/or more fun?

My wife is blind. Yes, there are kitchen timers which are intended for
the blind, but the one we had couldn't announce the time remaining-
and you couldn't even check that you'd remembered to start it.

So I made one which gives different tone of beep depending on whether
you've pressed the minute, ten-minute, or hour setting button, and
which speaks the time remaining when you press a button. That's one
PIC, one speech-storage chip, and a CMOS D-type.Current when not
running is microamps.

I also made talking kitchen scales; disembowel cheap electronic
scales, find a signal relating to weight, and again use a PIC and a
speech storage chip. (Yes, you can get such things off the shelf.)

This has been a piece of own-trumpet-blowing by an old git in the east
of England. Thank you for your forbearance.
--
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.

Michael A. Terrell

2007-04-21, 5:25 pm

Richard Henry wrote:
>
> On Apr 19, 9:05 pm, DaveC <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
> I have installed two Radio Shack motion detector light systems, one
> over the garage door and one to replace the front entry light.

I have a motion sensor controlled light in my driveway, another by
the back door and one in the hallway, so I don't fall while looking for
a light switch at night. Being half awake while leaning on a cane in
the dark, is dangerous.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

John Larkin

2007-04-21, 5:25 pm

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 18:50:39 GMT, tersono <ethel.thefrog@ntlworld.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:05:24 GMT, DaveC <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>My wife is blind. Yes, there are kitchen timers which are intended for
>the blind, but the one we had couldn't announce the time remaining-
>and you couldn't even check that you'd remembered to start it.

We have a machanical twist timer. It ticks while it's running and goes
DING! when it's done. You can locate it in the dark and easily feel
the pointer position and get a good idea of how much time is left. In
15 years, we've never had to replace the batteries.

John

tersono

2007-04-21, 5:25 pm

On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:22:43 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

>On Sat, 21 Apr 2007 18:50:39 GMT, tersono <ethel.thefrog@ntlworld.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>We have a machanical twist timer. It ticks while it's running and goes
>DING! when it's done. You can locate it in the dark and easily feel
>the pointer position and get a good idea of how much time is left. In
>15 years, we've never had to replace the batteries.
>
>John
>
It's good to remind the electronics nut that there are other ways to
solve problems!
--
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.

Franc Zabkar

2007-04-21, 8:25 pm

On Thu, 19 Apr 2007 21:38:54 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> put finger to keyboard
and composed:

>Working with electronics all day, I want nothing to do with it in my
>time off. I want all my household appliances to be as simple, dumb,
>reliable, and analog as possible. I'm comfortable with simple, old-gen
>PC applications because they work and are predictable.
>
>We push technology only in those places where it really pays off. If
>there's no big benefit, stick the the stuff that's known to work.
>
>John

I recently went shopping for a washing machine. I only saw one that
didn't have a microcontroller. As an engineer I can appreciate the
gadgetry, but as a tech I also understand the repair cost. No fancy
electronics for me, thanks.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Franc Zabkar

2007-04-22, 3:25 am

On Fri, 20 Apr 2007 04:05:24 GMT, DaveC <me@privacy.net> put finger to
keyboard and composed:

>One regular poster here has designed a microcontroller-based, networked (
>(remotely accessible), whole-home climate control monitoring system
>(heating-AC/hot h2o/heat exchangers/the whole works). Others have modified
>their digital toaster (I'm not mentioning names... (c: )
>
>How has your profession (or hobby) leaked into your everyday life? What
>customizations or applications have you put electronics to that makes your
>life easier and/or more fun?

Admittedly it's very trivial, but my most recent fun with electronics
was to hack a $40 DVD player based on a Sunplus chipset. I added a USB
port to it and replaced its "Tevion" banner with a photo of my own.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

2007-04-22, 1:25 pm

? "John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> ?????? ???
?????? news:o3hk23plo59ocicsg6dhv08tpojvdf0i7o@4ax.com...
> On 21 Apr 2007 08:37:17 -0700, Richard Henry <pomerado@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
([color=darkred]
modified[color=darkred]
your[color=darkred]
>
> Our garden has a drip system with one 24 volt solenoid valve wired to
> a hand-twist mechanical timer switch. It takes about 400 milliseconds
> to give it a twist and get it going; twist harder if you want more
> water. No programming, and it's been absolutely reliable for about 10
> years now.
>

I made an automatic watering system with a Theben digital timer, 2 single
phase 220 V relays and 2 solenoid valves,1/2 " and 3/4".The smaller gauge is
for watering the lawn with sprinklers, and the large for the rest with
dripping system.Working for more than 3 years flawlessly.There are Gardena
battery powered watering timers but they need servicing almost every year.

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering
mechanized infantry reservist
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr

Joel Kolstad

2007-04-22, 5:25 pm

"Jim Thompson" <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
message news:iemk239kob5of8ban636a5kgobealcatqi@4ax.com...
> There are other brands that use paper-enclosed coffee inserts. These
> dry out quickly, losing flavor.

Senseo.

There's also Tassimo, which is closer to a K-Cup... they're also bar-coded
so that the machine "knows" what it's making -- hence the Tassimo machines
can make lattes and hot chocolate (with milk) besides the water-based drinks
that the Keurig can.

Joel Kolstad

2007-04-22, 5:25 pm

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:ai8l23tp5p3add2atf2j8ike19ce5c7hu1@4ax.com...
> I recently went shopping for a washing machine. I only saw one that
> didn't have a microcontroller. As an engineer I can appreciate the
> gadgetry, but as a tech I also understand the repair cost.

In theory the electronic ones should be more reliable... the traditional
washing machine timer, with a bazillion little detents pressing spring-leaf
switches *will* fail, it's just a question of when.

In practice I wouldn't be surprised if the electronic ones weren't
particularly more reliable. The fact that anyone can easily sit down and
building a washing machine controller or similar in a matter of weeks now
has unfortunately often made reliability something of a secondary concern to
manufacturers, it would seem.

Pete Wilcox

2007-04-23, 1:25 pm

On Sun, 22 Apr 2007, Joel Kolstad wrote:

> "Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
> news:ai8l23tp5p3add2atf2j8ike19ce5c7hu1@4ax.com...
>
> In theory the electronic ones should be more reliable... the traditional
> washing machine timer, with a bazillion little detents pressing spring-leaf
> switches *will* fail, it's just a question of when.
>
Pretty much guaranteed that *every* washing machine will fail, given
enough time, electronically-controlled or not, the prime cause of failure
being vibration in the spin cycle inducing strain in the mechanical
components, but electronic circuit boards are as susceptible, if not more
so, to mechanical strain.

Personally, having kept our vintage (100% mechanical) washing machine
going FAR past it's reasonably-expected lifespan by maintenance
as-and-when, seems to me that the major causes of failure/stoppage are A)
Blockage of the outlet impeller by items that slip between the inner and
outer drums, ie. coins from pockets, safety pins, items of jewelery, etc.,
and B) component fracture, ie. inner drum mounting brackets, rubber
glands, and/or fractures/disintegration in the concrete damping blocks.

The old cam-driven microswitch program controller has much to recommend
it; it stands up to vibration reasonably well, is cheap, and the only
thing that is likely to disrupt its program is contact failure (which is
easily dealt with by a can of servisol/WD40) or, at an extreme,
dismantling and going over the contacts with a nailfile/emeryboard. Any
weak solder joint in the "electronic" equivalent, subject to the same
mechanical forces, can produce an "intermittent" failure mode that can be
an absolute bastard to track down, and result in many hours of fruitless
investigation.

All-in-all, I'd side with the "appropriate-technology" camp. If it does
what you want it to do, with the minimum of fuss, then it's the right
product. The more "knobs-and-whistles" there are, the more there is to go
wrong. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Cheers,
Pete.

Joel Kolstad

2007-04-23, 1:25 pm

Hi Pete,

I think you make a good case that, if you're stuck out in the boonies
somewhere, electro-mechanical washers are probably the way to go, since when
they do break you'll have a pretty good shot at being able to repair them
yourself. :-) Electronically controlled machines... not so much (ok, maybe
not at all...).

"Pete Wilcox" <pw2@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.GSO.4.60.0704231458490.4081@squire...
> Any weak solder joint in the "electronic" equivalent, subject to the same
> mechanical forces, can produce an "intermittent" failure mode that can be an
> absolute bastard to track down, and result in many hours of fruitless
> investigation.

It just seems to me that with appropriate quality control and design
(including isolation mounting, etc.), you should be able to design a washing
machine controller board with an MTBF of, say, 100 years.

> If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Electronically controlled washers are typiclaly a lot more water and
electiricity efficient than the old "fixed cycle" designs. This might not
rise to the level of "broken," (although Jim's leftist weenie greenies would
disagree :-) ) but it's close enough that newer machines can be considered
"valid" improvements, IMO.

---Joel

Mike Monett

2007-04-23, 1:25 pm

"Joel Kolstad" <JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> wrote:

> "Pete Wilcox" <pw2@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.60.0704231458490.4081@squire...
[color=darkred]
> It just seems to me that with appropriate quality control and design
> (including isolation mounting, etc.), you should be able to design a
> washing machine controller board with an MTBF of, say, 100 years.

[color=darkred]
> Electronically controlled washers are typiclaly a lot more water and
> electiricity efficient than the old "fixed cycle" designs. This might
> not rise to the level of "broken," (although Jim's leftist weenie
> greenies would disagree :-) ) but it's close enough that newer
> machines can be considered "valid" improvements, IMO.

> ---Joel

I have a Kenmore He3t front loader, which is identical internally to the
Whirlpool Neptune that was the subject of numerous class-action suits.

Despite having to redesign the drain mechanism to a gravity feed, I would
not trade this washer for a top load. It is so superior to a top load, I
won't even consider putting my clothes in one any more. The wash job is
fantastic.

When it detects an unbalanced load during spin, it has a neat algorithm to
spin at a low rpm which redistributes the load so it is balanced. When it
spins up, you often cannot tell there is anything in the drum, it is so
well balanced.

When it cannot balance the load, it spins anyway. The resulting vibration
shakes the floor and wakes up my neighbours, so I no can longer do laundry
at night.

I agree an intermittent connection can be a huge waste of time. But in this
case, if there were any weakness in the solder joints or connectors, they
would have fallen off long ago. So they must have pretty good quality
control to ship so many and have so few failures in the controller.

The forums are full of people taking about problems they are having with
these machines, and I can see how a lot of them can occur. But they seem to
have the connection problem solved.

Regards,

Mike Monett

jakdedert

2007-04-23, 5:25 pm

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> qrk wrote:
>
>
> You're not supposed to sit on it!
>
>
Oh yeah?

<http://www.sandman.com/intimst.html>

jak

Michael A. Terrell

2007-04-23, 5:25 pm

jakdedert wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> Oh yeah?

When was the last time you sat on a hot soldering iron, or the second
anoode lead of a TV that was on? ;-)

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

martin griffith

2007-04-23, 5:25 pm

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:22:57 -0500, in sci.electronics.design
jakdedert <jakdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>Oh yeah?
>
><http://www.sandman.com/intimst.html>
>
>jak
hmm,

the IntiMist must be located within 3 feet of a 110VAC 60 cycle US
style AC power receptacle. It uses a maximum of 465 watts.

Why 3 feet?

martin

Joel Kolstad

2007-04-23, 5:25 pm

"martin griffith" <mart_in_medina@ya___.es> wrote in message
news:hf0q23dmi4vmek4ihpu91rc3m5oppkhtin@4ax.com...
> the IntiMist must be located within 3 feet of a 110VAC 60 cycle US
> style AC power receptacle. It uses a maximum of 465 watts.
>
> Why 3 feet?

Perhaps because the designers figured the bathroom itself was also designed to
accomodate it, and therefore there'll be an outlet immediately adjacent to the
toilet, so a longer cord would just get in the way?

krw

2007-04-23, 5:25 pm

In article <132nidc126qpgf5@corp.supernews.com>,
JKolstad71HatesSpam@Yahoo.Com says...
> "Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
> news:ai8l23tp5p3add2atf2j8ike19ce5c7hu1@4ax.com...
>
> In theory the electronic ones should be more reliable... the traditional
> washing machine timer, with a bazillion little detents pressing spring-leaf
> switches *will* fail, it's just a question of when.
>
> In practice I wouldn't be surprised if the electronic ones weren't
> particularly more reliable. The fact that anyone can easily sit down and
> building a washing machine controller or similar in a matter of weeks now
> has unfortunately often made reliability something of a secondary concern to
> manufacturers, it would seem.

Electronically controlled appliances have had a long history of being
zapped. Mechanical controls are more robust.

--
Keith

Richard Henry

2007-04-23, 5:25 pm

On Apr 23, 11:53 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> jakdedert wrote:
>
>
>
>
> When was the last time you sat on a hot soldering iron, or the second
> anoode lead of a TV that was on? ;-)

I only tried to catch a dropped soldering iron once.

Michael A. Terrell

2007-04-23, 5:25 pm

Richard Henry wrote:
>
> On Apr 23, 11:53 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> I only tried to catch a dropped soldering iron once.

I caught one that rolled of someone else's workbench once. I saw
something rolling off the bench out of the corner of my eye, and caught
it before I realized what it was. I burnt three fingers and the palm of
my hand pretty bad. Luckily, I had some very thick military surplus
"Solenoid Lubricant" which was a very thick silicon grease. I smeared it
over the wounds within seconds, which prevented the burnt tissue from
drying out. Two weeks later there was almost no sign of the burns.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Rich Grise

2007-04-23, 5:25 pm

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 18:53:38 +0000, Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> jakdedert wrote:
>
> When was the last time you sat on a hot soldering iron, or the second
> anoode lead of a TV that was on? ;-)

I once had a hot power resistor hanging off the edge of my bench, and when
some guy came up to ask me a question, it melted a rectangular hole in
his polyester double-knits. :-)

Cheers!
Rich

Rich Grise

2007-04-23, 5:25 pm

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:59:39 +0200, martin griffith wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 13:22:57 -0500, in sci.electronics.design
> jakdedert <jakdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> the IntiMist must be located within 3 feet of a 110VAC 60 cycle US
> style AC power receptacle. It uses a maximum of 465 watts.
>
> Why 3 feet?

Power cord limitations, probably. It only gets connected to the
cold water line, and instant hot water can take some kilowatts.

Cheers!
Rich

Richard Henry

2007-04-23, 8:25 pm

On Apr 23, 1:49 pm, Rich Grise <r...@example.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 20:59:39 +0200, martin griffith wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Power cord limitations, probably. It only gets connected to the
> cold water line, and instant hot water can take some kilowatts.
>

The facrory must have an interesting test department.

Long Ranger

2007-04-23, 8:25 pm

"Richard Henry" <pomerado@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1177368475.686192.301040@d57g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 23, 1:49 pm, Rich Grise <r...@example.net> wrote:
>
> The facrory must have an interesting test department.
>
I have done lighting work for a number of small-time car dealers in my area.
The industry here is dominated by "Middle Easterners". Those items are quite
popular with them, which flies in the face of everything I've heard about
that "culture".

Don Kelly

2007-04-23, 8:25 pm

"Joel Kolstad" <JKolstad71HatesSpam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:132pn927jldc755@corp.supernews.com...
> Hi Pete,
>
> I think you make a good case that, if you're stuck out in the boonies
> somewhere, electro-mechanical washers are probably the way to go, since
> when they do break you'll have a pretty good shot at being able to repair
> them yourself. :-) Electronically controlled machines... not so much
> (ok, maybe not at all...).
>
> "Pete Wilcox" <pw2@st-andrews.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:Pine.GSO.4.60.0704231458490.4081@squire...
>
> It just seems to me that with appropriate quality control and design
> (including isolation mounting, etc.), you should be able to design a
> washing machine controller board with an MTBF of, say, 100 years.
>
>
> Electronically controlled washers are typiclaly a lot more water and
> electiricity efficient than the old "fixed cycle" designs. This might not
> rise to the level of "broken," (although Jim's leftist weenie greenies
> would disagree :-) ) but it's close enough that newer machines can be
> considered "valid" improvements, IMO.
>
> ---Joel
>

There are high efficiency washing machined which still use the old
mechanical timers. Yes the timer can fail- but it is cheap and easy to
replace. The washing efficiency comes from the mechanical design, more than
the electronics. The most useful electronics involved are in the direct
drive motor control and load sensing- of which the latter can be done with a
manual switch. The electronics, except for control of direct drive motors
doesn't make the washer more efficient. It makes more complexity possible
(often where it isn't needed). For manufacturers, the electronic controls
offer the PR advantage of 57 wash cycles, lots of lights, 20 spin speeds
and 10 temperature settings at little cost over simpler machines but
sellable at a premium price because of these (and typically not used).

Oh boy, it's dark, turn the car lights on: It's raining so the wipers should
be going on- Oh boy, if the driver can't see that it is dark or it is
raining- how did he get a license?
Contrast this with computer control of engine and transmission which
provides useful optimisation of performance.

Having said that, appropriate use of electronics does have advantages but
"appropriate" is the key word. Does it mean more complexity just because it
is possible? I hope not.
Now An MtBF of 100 years for an electronic module in a washing
machine -which is not the "one horse shay" of the poem, is, while possible,
not realistic considering the useful life of the mechanical parts. It can
be done-at what cost? Remember that repair of the electronics is simply the
replacement of the old part by a new part rather- do you expect the repair
technician to do actual fault analysis and repair of the faulty part? Throw
away and replace is the philosophy and has been for many years (not only in
electronics). Customer pays and will pay more for an electronic module than
for a clock driving cams (which actually may cost more to make).
(sorry was burnt on an electronic stove control which, in the middle of the
night, ran a self check and then would beep because something failed
(actually moisture fooling it -poor design)- $300 shot. Initially on
warranty but later it wasn't. Now I have replaced the whole stove and won't
buy a certain well known brand. Still electronic control but better design
for the application)

A lot of devices use "electronic" as sales pitch hype -e.g. toasters. The
fact that there may be no electronics involved doesn't matter.

K.I.S.S. is still and always be a valid approach.
--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------

Jim Thompson

2007-04-23, 8:25 pm

On Mon, 23 Apr 2007 23:30:42 GMT, "Don Kelly" <dhky@shaw.ca> wrote:

[snip]
>
>There are high efficiency washing machined which still use the old
>mechanical timers. Yes the timer can fail- but it is cheap and easy to
>replace.
[snip]

In my poorer days I've been known to replace cam switch springs with
appropriately trimmed safety pins... worked for two more years ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joel Kolstad

2007-04-23, 8:25 pm

"Don Kelly" <dhky@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:CkbXh.120046$6m4.44345@pd7urf1no...
> The washing efficiency comes from the mechanical design, more than the
> electronics. The most useful electronics involved are in the direct drive
> motor control and load sensing- of which the latter can be done with a
> manual switch.

Sure, but there's clearly a convenience factor involved in building a washer
that can automatically balance itself.

I also imagine that you do some amount of automatic water level/wash time
regulation based on simple electronics, but it seems to me that it should
again become more reliable -- and potentially much more robust -- if you take
some simple sensors and feed them to a microcontroller to chew on.

Another convenience example: In some non-U.S. countries, houses have multiple
power hookups, where one's only active at night and is priced at a lower
charge than the "regular" hookup. Most people have, e.g., their water heaters
on it. For an electric dryer, it's trivial to build an electronic timer into
a dryer so that it can also use that same hookup, whereas for a mechanical
dryer you'd need something like a spring-wound timer that would set the delay
before it started. I'd be quite surprised if the price or reliability of such
a mechanical timer was better than that of an electronic version (you can
literally use a $0.25 microcontroller and $0.25 LCD...).

I do agree that, in many cases, electronic control is used as a marketing tool
to provide additional, largely superfluous, "bells and whistles" that allow
manufacturers to obtain higher margins. This is no different than stainless
steel or just colored enameled appliances also commanding a disproportionately
larger price, the upcharge automobile manufacturers have for leather seats,
etc.

> Oh boy, it's dark, turn the car lights on: It's raining so the wipers should
> be going on- Oh boy, if the driver can't see that it is dark or it is
> raining- how did he get a license?

There's a huge difference between what people know they "should" do and what
they "really" do. Good engineering is giving people as few chances to screw
up as possible, while not unduly limiting their choices.

> A lot of devices use "electronic" as sales pitch hype -e.g. toasters. The
> fact that there may be no electronics involved doesn't matter.

I'm sure there are still plenty of crappy toasters out there, but I never met
*any* some 20+ years ago that would reliably toast multiple slices one right
after another without allowing the toaster to cool inbetween sets. This isn't
surprising since they were just thermal switches to pop-up the toast, of
course. Today there are electronically-controlled toasters that can easily
perform this feat.

> K.I.S.S. is still and always be a valid approach.

Yes, but there's a very wide range of "simple" when you'll selling to a large
market. Look at MP3 players: Part of Apple's success with the iPod is that it
is *very* simple to use, but this also makes it nowhere near as
customizable/tweakable as various non-Apple MP3 players. Many people (myself
included) think of the iPod as a toy meant for grade schoolers -- yet clearly
a very large portion of the market doesn't see it this way at all.

Heck, remember that Joerg sees no value in upgrading to HDTV or even DVDs. :-)

---Joel

LinkBot