Electrical Engineering - Paper Cutter Next Door Causing Power Surges

Author

Paper Cutter Next Door Causing Power Surges

THE COMPUTER LAB

2007-06-22, 9:25 am

Okay, I have a PC repair shop with everything on battery backups. Next door
is a printer company that recently installed a paper cutter. Just before I
hear it slam down to cut a ream of paper, my UPS's click and switch over to
battery for about 1/2 second. I am very uncomfortable about this since the
power company says they have nothing to do with this. I think the part of
the problem is this but don't know the technical cure: the power pole drops
the feed line into a huge breaker box on the back wall. This box has a hug
ON/OFF lever. From there, about six businesses branch off from that huge
box. The printer company occupies two office spaces; funny thing is that
they say they have no problems like mine. There business office section is
on the east side and my office is on the west side of the paper cutter
office space.

I keep stating to everyone that if all was right, the circuits would be
isolated and nothing they do with the printer equipment, even improperly,
should be affecting my 111VAC office circuits.

Two electricians say this cannot happen a point finger at power company.
Sheesh!!

Any helpful insights are welcome.

Salmon Egg

2007-06-22, 5:25 pm

On 6/22/07 7:18 AM, in article 467bda43$0$4841$4c368faf@roadrunner.com, "THE
COMPUTER LAB" <John_Novikoff@msn.com> wrote:

> Okay, I have a PC repair shop with everything on battery backups. Next door
> is a printer company that recently installed a paper cutter. Just before I
> hear it slam down to cut a ream of paper, my UPS's click and switch over to
> battery for about 1/2 second. I am very uncomfortable about this since the
> power company says they have nothing to do with this. I think the part of
> the problem is this but don't know the technical cure: the power pole drops
> the feed line into a huge breaker box on the back wall. This box has a hug
> ON/OFF lever. From there, about six businesses branch off from that huge
> box. The printer company occupies two office spaces; funny thing is that
> they say they have no problems like mine. There business office section is
> on the east side and my office is on the west side of the paper cutter
> office space.
>
> I keep stating to everyone that if all was right, the circuits would be
> isolated and nothing they do with the printer equipment, even improperly,
> should be affecting my 111VAC office circuits.
>
> Two electricians say this cannot happen a point finger at power company.
> Sheesh!!
>
> Any helpful insights are welcome.
>
>
>
Although I am not a lawyer, I think you only have legal recourse if you
cannot make an agreement with your local printer. Start gathering evidence
that the printer is causing you financial damage. Go to small claims court
for redress. The expertise I have gathered from various legal show
broadcasts indicate that if you do not proove damages, the courts will not
help.

One solution is to make sure that your UPS's will work when you need them.
You might start by recording voltage drops simultaneously with the sounds of
the paper cutter.

Bill
--
Iraq: About three Virginia Techs a month

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2007-06-23, 5:25 pm

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 10:18:35 -0400 THE COMPUTER LAB <John_Novikoff@msn.com> wrote:

| Okay, I have a PC repair shop with everything on battery backups. Next door
| is a printer company that recently installed a paper cutter. Just before I
| hear it slam down to cut a ream of paper, my UPS's click and switch over to
| battery for about 1/2 second. I am very uncomfortable about this since the
| power company says they have nothing to do with this. I think the part of
| the problem is this but don't know the technical cure: the power pole drops
| the feed line into a huge breaker box on the back wall. This box has a hug
| ON/OFF lever. From there, about six businesses branch off from that huge
| box. The printer company occupies two office spaces; funny thing is that
| they say they have no problems like mine. There business office section is
| on the east side and my office is on the west side of the paper cutter
| office space.

The power company has everything to do with it. Virtually every power
provider has tariff clauses restricting high motor start currents so
they can ensure power quality to other customers. The solutions they
generally impose when a customer needs that kind of power is to install
the necessary facility upgrade at the expense of the customer with the
special need.

| I keep stating to everyone that if all was right, the circuits would be
| isolated and nothing they do with the printer equipment, even improperly,
| should be affecting my 111VAC office circuits.
|
| Two electricians say this cannot happen a point finger at power company.
| Sheesh!!

As would I.

| Any helpful insights are welcome.

They clearly do not have sufficient transformer capacity feeding these six
businesses to accomodate the special needs of a customer with very high
motor starting loads. One possible solution is to install a separate
transformer and service drop exclusively for the printing company. If
the distribution circuit above that can handle the sudden demand, that
should clear it up, at least for the 5 other businesses. There may still
be an issue within the printing business, but that's for them to take care
of themselves. It might be necessary to have a very large transformer to
handle cutter load _and_ avoid the voltage drop. But isolating things is
usually a cheaper solution, as the existing transformer was apparently
sufficient for the other 5 businesses. Let the printing company have a
transformer to themselves and let them pay for as big a transformer as
they feel they need.

The power company _will_ _always_ tell you it is not their fault and that
there is nothing they can do about it. This is just what they do no matter
what the real issue is (and they very likely have no idea what that issue
is when they say so). You have to keep on them about it. Be sure to talk
to engineering people. Anyone else that tells you they can't let you talk
to engineer people are _unqualified_ to make any claim that the power
company is unable to deal with it.

Ask for some specific information from the power company:

1. What is the available fault current for your service (this information
is necessary for correctly rating circuit breakers so they must provide
it to you).
2. What the is rated "KVA" capacity of the transformer serving your drop.
3. What is the voltage and resistance on the distribution circuit serving
your location.

They might be reluctant to give you the information in #2 and #3.

You may need to end up filing a complaint with your local governing agency
that deals with utilities.

Still, some UPSes are more sensitive than others. Try quality name brand
(e.g. actually manufactured by the same company that labels and markets it)
UPSes to be sure.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2007-06-23-1545@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2007-06-23, 5:25 pm

On Fri, 22 Jun 2007 12:31:19 -0700 Salmon Egg <salmonegg@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
| On 6/22/07 7:18 AM, in article 467bda43$0$4841$4c368faf@roadrunner.com, "THE
| COMPUTER LAB" <John_Novikoff@msn.com> wrote:
|
|> Okay, I have a PC repair shop with everything on battery backups. Next door
|> is a printer company that recently installed a paper cutter. Just before I
|> hear it slam down to cut a ream of paper, my UPS's click and switch over to
|> battery for about 1/2 second. I am very uncomfortable about this since the
|> power company says they have nothing to do with this. I think the part of
|> the problem is this but don't know the technical cure: the power pole drops
|> the feed line into a huge breaker box on the back wall. This box has a hug
|> ON/OFF lever. From there, about six businesses branch off from that huge
|> box. The printer company occupies two office spaces; funny thing is that
|> they say they have no problems like mine. There business office section is
|> on the east side and my office is on the west side of the paper cutter
|> office space.
|>
|> I keep stating to everyone that if all was right, the circuits would be
|> isolated and nothing they do with the printer equipment, even improperly,
|> should be affecting my 111VAC office circuits.
|>
|> Two electricians say this cannot happen a point finger at power company.
|> Sheesh!!
|>
|> Any helpful insights are welcome.
|>
|>
|>
| Although I am not a lawyer, I think you only have legal recourse if you
| cannot make an agreement with your local printer. Start gathering evidence
| that the printer is causing you financial damage. Go to small claims court
| for redress. The expertise I have gathered from various legal show
| broadcasts indicate that if you do not proove damages, the courts will not
| help.
|
| One solution is to make sure that your UPS's will work when you need them.
| You might start by recording voltage drops simultaneously with the sounds of
| the paper cutter.

I disagree. The printer is not at fault with respect to other customers
of the electric company. The electric company is required to provide quality
service. If they have to cut off the printing company, or isolate them on
a differnet transformer or different circuit, then so be it (and you can be
sure they will impose that cost on the printing company).

Pursue the electric company initially and try to get them to cure the problem
as described in their tariffs. If that fails, take the case to the local or
state public utility board/commission for your area.

UPSes do act up on strange power, such as a positive or negative spike less
than a half cycle in time. So it can, to an extent, be an issue with the
UPS. But there clearly is an issue with the quality of power. And the power
company most certainly can cure it. This is not a case of a location so
remote that quality power is not practical because it did exist before the
special load was added by one customer. A simple solution is to isolate
the printing company with a separate transformer just for them (which if it
is rated at less than the original will cause their power to actually be
worse than before the isolation). Guess who pays the cost of all this
isolation? Not you and not the electric company.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2007-06-23-1603@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

TimPerry

2007-06-23, 5:25 pm

THE COMPUTER LAB wrote:
> Okay, I have a PC repair shop with everything on battery backups.
> Next door is a printer company that recently installed a paper
> cutter. Just before I hear it slam down to cut a ream of paper, my
> UPS's click and switch over to battery for about 1/2 second. I am
> very uncomfortable about this since the power company says they have
> nothing to do with this. I think the part of the problem is this but
> don't know the technical cure: the power pole drops the feed line
> into a huge breaker box on the back wall. This box has a hug ON/OFF
> lever. From there, about six businesses branch off from that huge
> box. The printer company occupies two office spaces; funny thing is
> that they say they have no problems like mine. There business office
> section is on the east side and my office is on the west side of the
> paper cutter office space.
>
> I keep stating to everyone that if all was right, the circuits would
> be isolated and nothing they do with the printer equipment, even
> improperly, should be affecting my 111VAC office circuits.
>
> Two electricians say this cannot happen a point finger at power
> company. Sheesh!!
>
> Any helpful insights are welcome.

I had sort of a similar problem once. The solution was to contact the maker
up the UPS. They walked me through a program procedure that widened the trip
tolerances.

This was after the power company placed a line on the service for a few
days.

Beachcomber

2007-06-23, 9:25 pm

On Sat, 23 Jun 2007 17:52:09 -0400, "TimPerry" <timperry@noaspama.net>
wrote:

>THE COMPUTER LAB wrote:
>
>I had sort of a similar problem once. The solution was to contact the maker
>up the UPS. They walked me through a program procedure that widened the trip
>tolerances.
>
>This was after the power company placed a line on the service for a few
>days.
>
>

If you are in the US, you will probably find that the state regulators
require your utility to provide service to your under published
tariffs and reasonable service conditons. This does not require them
to provide your with pristine, computer-grade power (unless you have
arranged to pay extra for it).

When a power customer I know complained about about a similar problem,
the utility answered their concerns politely and put slow-response
strip chart recorders on the line for about a week. At the end of
the week, they said "See.. Nothing wrong with the lines, the provided
voltage stayed well within tolerances". (These old mechanical
strip-chart recorders were not fast enough to millisecond outages and
surges).

YMMV, but no utility wants to set a precedent to create a liability
for themselves by promising pristine power with no transients. In my
opinion, if the customer with the paper cutter is screwing up the
power to the neighborhood, they should pay for the fix.

Beachcomber

Beachcomber

THE COMPUTER LAB

2007-06-25, 9:25 am

Thank you everyone for many and diverse thoughts on my problem. These are
all really great answers!

John

"THE COMPUTER LAB" <John_Novikoff@msn.com> wrote in message
news:467bda43$0$4841$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Okay, I have a PC repair shop with everything on battery backups. Next
> door is a printer company that recently installed a paper cutter. Just
> before I hear it slam down to cut a ream of paper, my UPS's click and
> switch over to battery for about 1/2 second. I am very uncomfortable
> about this since the power company says they have nothing to do with this.
> I think the part of the problem is this but don't know the technical cure:
> the power pole drops the feed line into a huge breaker box on the back
> wall. This box has a hug ON/OFF lever. From there, about six businesses
> branch off from that huge box. The printer company occupies two office
> spaces; funny thing is that they say they have no problems like mine.
> There business office section is on the east side and my office is on the
> west side of the paper cutter office space.
>
> I keep stating to everyone that if all was right, the circuits would be
> isolated and nothing they do with the printer equipment, even improperly,
> should be affecting my 111VAC office circuits.
>
> Two electricians say this cannot happen a point finger at power company.
> Sheesh!!
>
> Any helpful insights are welcome.
>
>
>

Michael Moroney

2007-06-26, 5:25 pm

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net writes:

>Still, some UPSes are more sensitive than others. Try quality name brand
>(e.g. actually manufactured by the same company that labels and markets it)
>UPSes to be sure.

Hah! Often the UPS for my computer will momentarily switch to battery
power when I switch on the overhead light (on the same circuit). The
overhead light has the massive load of 2 22 watt CF bulbs (or are they
14 watt bulbs? I'll have to check). I don't normally see visible voltage
drop effects on this circuit.

THE COMPUTER LAB

2007-07-23, 1:25 pm

Well, one electrician claims he sees this a lot. I am probably on the same
"phase" as that paper cutter next door. He says the office on the opposite
side that does not have problems is common since it is NOT on the same phase
as the paper cutter.

Can anyone elaborate?

"THE COMPUTER LAB" <John_Novikoff@msn.com> wrote in message
news:467bda43$0$4841$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
> Okay, I have a PC repair shop with everything on battery backups. Next
> door is a printer company that recently installed a paper cutter. Just
> before I hear it slam down to cut a ream of paper, my UPS's click and
> switch over to battery for about 1/2 second. I am very uncomfortable
> about this since the power company says they have nothing to do with this.
> I think the part of the problem is this but don't know the technical cure:
> the power pole drops the feed line into a huge breaker box on the back
> wall. This box has a hug ON/OFF lever. From there, about six businesses
> branch off from that huge box. The printer company occupies two office
> spaces; funny thing is that they say they have no problems like mine.
> There business office section is on the east side and my office is on the
> west side of the paper cutter office space.
>
> I keep stating to everyone that if all was right, the circuits would be
> isolated and nothing they do with the printer equipment, even improperly,
> should be affecting my 111VAC office circuits.
>
> Two electricians say this cannot happen a point finger at power company.
> Sheesh!!
>
> Any helpful insights are welcome.
>
>
>

contrex

2007-07-25, 5:25 pm

On 23 Jul, 18:05, "THE COMPUTER LAB" <John_Novik...@msn.com> wrote:

> Well, one electrician claims he sees this a lot. I am probably on the same
> "phase" as that paper cutter next door. He says the office on the opposite
> side that does not have problems is common since it is NOT on the same phase
> as the paper cutter.
>
> Can anyone elaborate?

Electrical power in quantity is delivered using the "three phase"
system, invented by Nikola Tesla I think. Three or sometimes four
cables are used. To balance the load, adjacent customers might very
well be connected to different phases. You are unlucky enough to share
your phase with the unruly load represented by the paper cutter. You
could try asking the power compnay to switch you to a different phase.

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