Electrical Engineering - Inverter or laptop power adapter?

Author

Inverter or laptop power adapter?

no_one

2007-09-16, 3:25 am

A friend lives on a boat with 12V power when he is not at the dock. He
needs to run his laptop (dell inspiron) while out at sea. He had problems
with a Radio Shack inverter (no suprise here) that finally blew itself up in
a large puff of smoke. His options are a new (hopefully better quality)
inverter or a laptop power adapter that runs from 12 volts and produces the
correct DC power to directly supply and charge the laptop. I have been
looking at names like Cyber Power and Targus and they seem to have suitable
units for the job.

Any opinions on which is the better solution? It seems to me that the DC-DC
(adapter) would be simpler than the need to chop and form 115vac which will
go to still another adapter to provide the DC that the laptop actually will
use.

Thanks for any help

Ron

Anthony Guzzi

2007-09-16, 3:25 am

no_one wrote:
> A friend lives on a boat with 12V power when he is not at the dock. He
> needs to run his laptop (dell inspiron) while out at sea. He had problems
> with a Radio Shack inverter (no suprise here) that finally blew itself up in
> a large puff of smoke. His options are a new (hopefully better quality)
> inverter or a laptop power adapter that runs from 12 volts and produces the
> correct DC power to directly supply and charge the laptop. I have been
> looking at names like Cyber Power and Targus and they seem to have suitable
> units for the job.
>
> Any opinions on which is the better solution? It seems to me that the DC-DC
> (adapter) would be simpler than the need to chop and form 115vac which will
> go to still another adapter to provide the DC that the laptop actually will
> use.
>
> Thanks for any help
>
> Ron
>
>

Tell him to just go buy a honda generator or something similar that can
power a bunch of things.

2007-09-16, 3:25 am

"no_one" <no_one@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:M72Hi.5453$A72.3966@trnddc08...
>A friend lives on a boat with 12V power when he is not at the dock. He
>needs to run his laptop (dell inspiron) while out at sea. He had problems
>with a Radio Shack inverter (no suprise here) that finally blew itself up
>in a large puff of smoke. His options are a new (hopefully better quality)
>inverter or a laptop power adapter that runs from 12 volts and produces the
>correct DC power to directly supply and charge the laptop. I have been
>looking at names like Cyber Power and Targus and they seem to have suitable
>units for the job.
>
> Any opinions on which is the better solution? It seems to me that the
> DC-DC (adapter) would be simpler than the need to chop and form 115vac
> which will go to still another adapter to provide the DC that the laptop
> actually will use.

Define "better solution."

A laptop adapter that connects directly to 12v is more efficient, requires
less parts and cables that can fail, and can be used in practically any
vehicle. I got one on Ebay that works great, but it's only for the low
power laptop. My big pretty laptop requires more power than most of the
adapters I've found.

However, your friend lives on a boat, so having a handy source of 110v would
be useful for other things without the need for more adapters. Years ago I
got a good inverter at a truck stop, but if you want to go fancy, tripp-lite
makes some really nice ones which can be wired into an entire circuit or two
throughout the boat using marine Romex.

By the way, avoid Radio Shack unless you want a cheap battery or something.
Practically everything they have now is pure garbage. Even a cheapo
inverter should shut itself off or trip a breaker when overloaded. Buying
anything else from them is a waste of time and money.

CS

no_one

2007-09-16, 3:25 am

too small a boat; not a good solution but thanks

"Anthony Guzzi" <dukeofurl@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:46ecb61a$0$27212$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> no_one wrote:
>
>
> Tell him to just go buy a honda generator or something similar that can
> power a bunch of things.

no_one

2007-09-16, 3:25 am

"CS" <idontwork@fcc.gov> wrote in message
news:13epe48rrj5m4e6@corp.supernews.com...
> "no_one" <no_one@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:M72Hi.5453$A72.3966@trnddc08...
>
> Define "better solution."
>
> A laptop adapter that connects directly to 12v is more efficient, requires
> less parts and cables that can fail, and can be used in practically any
> vehicle. I got one on Ebay that works great, but it's only for the low
> power laptop. My big pretty laptop requires more power than most of the
> adapters I've found.
>
> However, your friend lives on a boat, so having a handy source of 110v
> would be useful for other things without the need for more adapters.
> Years ago I got a good inverter at a truck stop, but if you want to go
> fancy, tripp-lite makes some really nice ones which can be wired into an
> entire circuit or two throughout the boat using marine Romex.
>
> By the way, avoid Radio Shack unless you want a cheap battery or
> something. Practically everything they have now is pure garbage. Even a
> cheapo inverter should shut itself off or trip a breaker when overloaded.
> Buying anything else from them is a waste of time and money.
>
> CS

Good feedback, thanks. I have the same opinion of RS and wanted to steer my
friend clear of them in the future.
What about power quality of the inverter output? Should one be concerned
or do modern inverters provide a clean enough output for laptop and other
uses? Any problems driving motors (refrigerators, fans, etc) within the
wattage limitations of the unit?

Bungalow Bill

2007-09-16, 3:25 am

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 05:06:47 GMT, "no_one" <no_one@verizon.net> wrote:

>too small a boat; not a good solution but thanks
>
>
>"Anthony Guzzi" <dukeofurl@sonic.net> wrote in message
>news:46ecb61a$0$27212$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>

Most UPSs for computers utilize 12V battery systems inside them.

You could take a small, fully charged UPS onto the boat, and turn it on
when needed, which should yield at least a few hours of 120V operation.
You'd have to mute the alarm though. It would think it was operating
during a power outage, and the batteries are made for such deep cycling
type operation. Perfect solution.

2007-09-16, 3:25 am

"no_one" <no_one@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:0V2Hi.1371$ec2.1057@trnddc03...
>
> "CS" <idontwork@fcc.gov> wrote in message
> news:13epe48rrj5m4e6@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Good feedback, thanks. I have the same opinion of RS and wanted to steer
> my friend clear of them in the future.
> What about power quality of the inverter output? Should one be concerned
> or do modern inverters provide a clean enough output for laptop and other
> uses? Any problems driving motors (refrigerators, fans, etc) within the
> wattage limitations of the unit?

Laptops and anything else with a switching power supply will be perfectly
happy with just about any inverter.

Some motors, on the other hand, might not be so easygoing. I haven't had a
problem so far, but I don't run much of that stuff on mine.

Instead of the curvy pretty sine wave you (should) be getting in the house,
an inverter will spit out what's called a modified sine wave, which kinda
looks like rectangles. Most things don't care, but I'm told some do,
especially motor type stuff. As I said, I don't do much more than running a
TV and whatnot off my inverter. You can always do the buy-and-try method,
where you buy something, try it out on the inverter, and if it doesn't work,
take it back.

If you want the pretty-sine-wavy inverter that'll run anything, it'll cost
you roughly double or more, and in my opinion, just isn't worth the expense
or trouble.

What you and your friend need to do is sit down, make a list of everything
you want to run, then do some research into what's available and what power
it requires. You can get quite a few things to run off 12v, like a fridge,
fan, coffee maker, and buying a huge, beefy inverter to run that kind of
stuff is a waste of money and power.

Oh, and when you see a 500 watt inverter for sale cheap, chances are almost
100% that it'll barely handle 200 watts or so for any length of time.
Sometimes they beef up their advertising by claiming Peak Watts or Surge
Power, and sometimes they just lie their tails off. Even if it can handle
500 watts, and you have something like 450 watts you need to run, better
move up to a higher rated model. It's best to have plenty of wriggle room
for start-up loads, unexpected demand, and the fact that few inverters take
kindly to being pushed closer to 80% of their max rating for any length of
time.

CS

Uncle Monster

2007-09-16, 3:25 am

no_one wrote:
> A friend lives on a boat with 12V power when he is not at the dock. He
> needs to run his laptop (dell inspiron) while out at sea. He had problems
> with a Radio Shack inverter (no suprise here) that finally blew itself up in
> a large puff of smoke. His options are a new (hopefully better quality)
> inverter or a laptop power adapter that runs from 12 volts and produces the
> correct DC power to directly supply and charge the laptop. I have been
> looking at names like Cyber Power and Targus and they seem to have suitable
> units for the job.
>
> Any opinions on which is the better solution? It seems to me that the DC-DC
> (adapter) would be simpler than the need to chop and form 115vac which will
> go to still another adapter to provide the DC that the laptop actually will
> use.
>
> Thanks for any help
>
> Ron
>

Check out this company:

http://tinyurl.com/2e7whm

[8~{} Uncle Monster

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-16, 9:25 am

Bungalow Bill wrote:
>
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 05:06:47 GMT, "no_one" <no_one@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
> Most UPSs for computers utilize 12V battery systems inside them.
>
> You could take a small, fully charged UPS onto the boat, and turn it on
> when needed, which should yield at least a few hours of 120V operation.
> You'd have to mute the alarm though. It would think it was operating
> during a power outage, and the batteries are made for such deep cycling
> type operation. Perfect solution.

Sure it will. I have a pile of UPS that will not work that way.
They have to detect the loss of the line voltage before the inverter
will tun on. Another type of power supply you know nothing about. If
your half assed idea was any good, I would have had lights for the two
weeks of waiting after the last hurricane damage to the local grid.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

no_one

2007-09-16, 1:25 pm

"CS" <idontwork@fcc.gov> wrote in message
news:13ephkih7ak05ac@corp.supernews.com...
> "no_one" <no_one@verizon.net> wrote in message
> news:0V2Hi.1371$ec2.1057@trnddc03...
>
> Laptops and anything else with a switching power supply will be perfectly
> happy with just about any inverter.
>
> Some motors, on the other hand, might not be so easygoing. I haven't had
> a problem so far, but I don't run much of that stuff on mine.
>
> Instead of the curvy pretty sine wave you (should) be getting in the
> house, an inverter will spit out what's called a modified sine wave, which
> kinda looks like rectangles. Most things don't care, but I'm told some
> do, especially motor type stuff. As I said, I don't do much more than
> running a TV and whatnot off my inverter. You can always do the
> buy-and-try method, where you buy something, try it out on the inverter,
> and if it doesn't work, take it back.
>
> If you want the pretty-sine-wavy inverter that'll run anything, it'll cost
> you roughly double or more, and in my opinion, just isn't worth the
> expense or trouble.
>
> What you and your friend need to do is sit down, make a list of everything
> you want to run, then do some research into what's available and what
> power it requires. You can get quite a few things to run off 12v, like a
> fridge, fan, coffee maker, and buying a huge, beefy inverter to run that
> kind of stuff is a waste of money and power.
>
> Oh, and when you see a 500 watt inverter for sale cheap, chances are
> almost 100% that it'll barely handle 200 watts or so for any length of
> time. Sometimes they beef up their advertising by claiming Peak Watts or
> Surge Power, and sometimes they just lie their tails off. Even if it can
> handle 500 watts, and you have something like 450 watts you need to run,
> better move up to a higher rated model. It's best to have plenty of
> wriggle room for start-up loads, unexpected demand, and the fact that few
> inverters take kindly to being pushed closer to 80% of their max rating
> for any length of time.
>
> CS

Thanks for the input; I was concerned that the square wave outputs could
cause stress on the load device but you have convinced me that that should
not be a concern with this application.

I agree with you that if it appears to be too good a price then it probably
is!

Ron

Palindrome

2007-09-16, 1:25 pm

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
<snip>

> They {UPS} have to detect the loss of the line voltage before the inverter
> will tun on.

Many do. Many do not and have a run switch that will start up the UPS
without any mains supply. Those that don't are usually fairly easy to
modify so that they will start up without a supply present. A typical
mod is as simple as a momentary-action switch wired across a set of
relay contacts.

--
Sue

2007-09-16, 1:25 pm

"no_one" <no_one@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:YIbHi.5904$A72.2245@trnddc08...
<snip>
> Thanks for the input; I was concerned that the square wave outputs could
> cause stress on the load device but you have convinced me that that should
> not be a concern with this application.
>
> I agree with you that if it appears to be too good a price then it
> probably is!

I saw somebody suggest a generator. These can be very small and handy, but
they can be hard on your gear. Typically, the cheaper or junkie the
generator, the nastier the output, usually in the form of messy sine waves
and voltage spikes. I had one do this, and it wasn't even cheap or junky.
Evidently it wasn't designed for 110v AC, but to run A/C units and recharge
the batteries on a 24v bus (the generator had it's own battery and used
12v). It tended to blow fuses on 12v adapters, such as cell phone chargers,
and killed a wall wart powering my DVD player. The conversion was done by
good mechanics, but the generator just wasn't built for this stuff.

Another problem with gas generators, especially if kept strictly for
emergencies, is fuel. If you leave it in there for months or years at a
time, it can do damage to the carbs, and you may be out of luck when you
really need it. The fuel can also go bad if you don't use stabilizer, and
eventually even that will go if not used. If you use a generator on a
regular basis, however, it should be pretty reliable.

Anyway, a small generator might not be a bad idea. You said elsewhere the
boat was too small, but if your thinking of a small refrigerator, it's
probably big enough for a smallish generator to power it. Higher power
gear, such as a fridge and fans, won't be bothered by a generator's output
as much as electronics, and you can still use an inverter for the more
delicate stuff. This would be handy if you go camping or have an emergency.

I still prefer an inverter, and eventually I'll get a more powerful one for
emergencies unless I get a great deal on a diesel genny. An inverter can
sit ignored for years and still fire right up. All you need is a fully
charged battery (or two, or several) which can be had with any car or truck.
This makes more sense for my lifestyle.

CS

2007-09-16, 1:25 pm

"Bungalow Bill" <BugalowBill@AbbeyRoad.UKCOM> wrote in message
news:ohepe35c87qtj0j06afd8fecjbln0didfc@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 05:06:47 GMT, "no_one" <no_one@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Most UPSs for computers utilize 12V battery systems inside them.
>
> You could take a small, fully charged UPS onto the boat, and turn it on
> when needed, which should yield at least a few hours of 120V operation.
> You'd have to mute the alarm though. It would think it was operating
> during a power outage, and the batteries are made for such deep cycling
> type operation. Perfect solution.

I tried using one of those small, cheap UPS's to power my cordless phone
during a power outage. When the power finally went out (stupid me didn't do
a proper test beforehand) I found the UPS died after just a few minutes.
With the biggish battery (12v 7.5mah) compared to the load (110v 500ma), it
should have lasted several hours, if not days. Evidently it automatically
turns itself off after a very short while, since it was really meant for
computers with heavier loads. This makes sense, since it was designed to be
cheap, not efficient, so instead of monitoring the load and battery, it just
had a simple timer.

The batteries in most UPS's, especially those designed for home or office
use, have sealed lead acid batteries. Not quite deep cycle, but they're
usually good for three to five years. (No doubt somebody's ready to fire
back that they have SLA's or AGM's that have lasted 15 years...good for you,
but their rated life is roughly 5 years or less in terms of reliability) In
most UPS's, you can change out the batteries after a few years at a small
fraction of the cost of a new UPS.

Some UPS's are designed to be directly connected to larger, automotive type
batteries, so if you need very long running time and/or high power, these
are the way to go. Typically, you would use deep cycle marine type
batteries, and some can run on anything from 12v to 48v.

CS

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-16, 5:25 pm

Palindrome wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> <snip>
>
>
> Many do. Many do not and have a run switch that will start up the UPS
> without any mains supply. Those that don't are usually fairly easy to
> modify so that they will start up without a supply present. A typical
> mod is as simple as a momentary-action switch wired across a set of
> relay contacts.
>
> --
> Sue

All of the models I use monitor the AC line quality, and use a
microprocessor to decide when to switch.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Palindrome

2007-09-16, 5:25 pm

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> Palindrome wrote:
>
>
> All of the models I use monitor the AC line quality, and use a
> microprocessor to decide when to switch.
>
>

Even the swish ones that do a lot of line quality monitoring will start
the inverter up when plugged into an out-of-tolerance supply. The
/supply present/ signal to the uproc is often either an opto-isolated
logic level or a relay contact. Faking one of those with a momentary
contact switch will get the uproc acting as if it has a supply present
and it will start monitoring the input supply - which, with no supply
present will cause the inverter to start up.

Another thing to look out for is a (test) jumper on (one of) the pec(s).
I haven't come across a modern one without one - although I seldom see
anything <1kVA.
--
Sue

Bungalow Bill

2007-09-16, 9:25 pm

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 07:33:00 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> Sure it will. I have a pile of UPS that will not work that way.
>They have to detect the loss of the line voltage before the inverter
>will tun on. Another type of power supply you know nothing about.

Bullshit. I have UPSs that will turn on in backup/recover mode when
there is no AC power detected, and if it ain't plugged in, guess what,
asswipe... no AC gets detected, dipshit.

Another power supply that YOU made a retarded ASSumption about.

Par for the course with a weenie fucktard like you.

Bungalow Bill

2007-09-16, 9:25 pm

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 07:33:00 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

> If
>your half assed idea was any good, I would have had lights for the two
>weeks of waiting after the last hurricane damage to the local grid.

Note where I said it was only good for a couple of hours, and not even
if under full load.

Fuck off, asswipe. It ain't for your house lights.

Bungalow Bill

2007-09-16, 9:25 pm

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:40:58 GMT, Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:

>Michael A. Terrell wrote:
><snip>
>
>
>Many do. Many do not and have a run switch that will start up the UPS
>without any mains supply. Those that don't are usually fairly easy to
>modify so that they will start up without a supply present. A typical
>mod is as simple as a momentary-action switch wired across a set of
>relay contacts.

Most will run from the moment their main switch is activated if their
battery is up, and there is no AC detected.

Thank you for the confirmation.

Palindrome

2007-09-17, 9:25 am

Bungalow Bill wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 15:40:58 GMT, Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> Most will run from the moment their main switch is activated if their
> battery is up, and there is no AC detected.
>
IME, for modern UPS, *some* will do something similar but certainly not
most - as due to what I can only assume is a cost-saving measure, they
often don't have a "test" or "start" button. So they just sit there
doing absolutely nothing until connected to a supply, no matter what
position the main switch is in.

I haven't actually come across one that runs immediately on operating
the main switch, with no power connected. A make and model of one that
does so would be appreciated. The nearest to that I have seen is one
with a "start" button, right next to the main switch.

Another thing for the OP to consider is that UPS tend to use several 12v
batteries in series, to create an internal dc supply of 48v or higher.
Whereas an inverter is usually designed to run off 12 or 24v. So an
inverter can be a whole lot easier to hook up to the odd big deep
discharge battery, or even a car battery or two, at a push.

Also many small UPS have been designed only to run for the length of
time determined by their internal batteries. On high load they get very
hot internally, but the battery energy runs out before the internal
temperatures rise to unsafe levels. Mod those to run off an external
battery supply and they trip thermal (often non-resettable) fuses - if
you are lucky..

Me, I like to use a genny and an inverter and batteries- especially
these tiny ones that use electronics to produce the output sine wave and
allow the motor speed to change with load. Even a small one will work
well with a battery/ inverter combination. Whereas you need a much
larger regular genny to do that, because of the voltage peak truncation
effect of load on small gennys.

--
Sue

--
Sue

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-17, 9:25 am

Bungalow Bill wrote:
>
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 07:33:00 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> Bullshit. I have UPSs that will turn on in backup/recover mode when
> there is no AC power detected, and if it ain't plugged in, guess what,
> asswipe... no AC gets detected, dipshit.
>
> Another power supply that YOU made a retarded ASSumption about.
>
> Par for the course with a weenie fucktard like you.

Yawn. None of the APC I have will work the way you describe.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-17, 9:25 am

Bungalow Bill wrote:
>
> On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 07:33:00 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> Note where I said it was only good for a couple of hours, and not even
> if under full load.
>
> Fuck off, asswipe. It ain't for your house lights.

Yawn.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-17, 9:25 am

Palindrome wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>
> Even the swish ones that do a lot of line quality monitoring will start
> the inverter up when plugged into an out-of-tolerance supply. The
> /supply present/ signal to the uproc is often either an opto-isolated
> logic level or a relay contact. Faking one of those with a momentary
> contact switch will get the uproc acting as if it has a supply present
> and it will start monitoring the input supply - which, with no supply
> present will cause the inverter to start up.
>
> Another thing to look out for is a (test) jumper on (one of) the pec(s).
> I haven't come across a modern one without one - although I seldom see
> anything <1kVA.

I work with small UPS from 250 VA to 850 VA, and I haven't been able
to trick any of them into starting without clean 120 VAC 60 HZ input.

The last large one I worked with was 15 KVA, and had a switch to start
it with no 208 VAC 3 phase input. Of course, that beast would sink a
small boat. They had ot move it with a fork lift, then install the
batteries: 20, 12 VDC UPS wet cell batteries.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

ChairmanOfTheBored

2007-09-17, 9:25 am

On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 06:49:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

>
> I work with small UPS from 250 VA to 850 VA, and I haven't been able
>to trick any of them into starting without clean 120 VAC 60 HZ input.

Idiot. When they have clean power they DO NOT start at all.

It is when the power sags or fails completely that they begin to
perform their job. D'oh!

Stephen

2007-09-17, 1:25 pm

On 17 Sep, 14:04, ChairmanOfTheBored <RUBo...@crackasmile.org> wrote:
> On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 06:49:37 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
>
> <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
>
> Idiot. When they have clean power they DO NOT start at all.
>
> It is when the power sags or fails completely that they begin to
> perform their job. D'oh!

We are using plenty of UPSs where the inverter runs all the time.
What you say could be true for a Standby UPS, however I suspect that
even then the inverter is actually active, it's just not supplying
power to the load. An on-line UPS will have its inverter actively
powering the load all the time the UPS is switch on.

Paul Hovnanian P.E.

2007-09-18, 3:25 am

no_one wrote:
>
> A friend lives on a boat with 12V power when he is not at the dock. He
> needs to run his laptop (dell inspiron) while out at sea. He had problems
> with a Radio Shack inverter (no suprise here) that finally blew itself up in
> a large puff of smoke. His options are a new (hopefully better quality)
> inverter or a laptop power adapter that runs from 12 volts and produces the
> correct DC power to directly supply and charge the laptop. I have been
> looking at names like Cyber Power and Targus and they seem to have suitable
> units for the job.
>
> Any opinions on which is the better solution? It seems to me that the DC-DC
> (adapter) would be simpler than the need to chop and form 115vac which will
> go to still another adapter to provide the DC that the laptop actually will
> use.
>
> Thanks for any help
>
> Ron

The 12V laptop supply will probably be more efficient and less prone to
incompatibilities between a 115V PS and an inverter.

A good (not Radio Shack) inverter will provide more flexibility in the
event 115 VAC is needed for other gizmos. It will, of course, be more
expensive.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Happily doing the work of 3 Men ... Moe, Larry & Curly

Roy

2007-09-18, 3:25 am

I don't have any personal experience with this type of problem on a
boat, But, at first glance if you can power plug your laptop in a cars
cigarette lighter or like on some SUV's have a 12 volt power outlet,
you'd be half way there - Having that power cord with the proper adapter
for the LT would be my first "must have" to take advantage of any DC
power source available in auto's, boats and other 12 VDC vehicles ...

If the problem is a need for a good non distorted 12Volt source on the
boat...I Agree that uping it to 120vac to then plug a transformer to
down it back to 12vdc from a "land of wonders" inverter is
counter-productve and kind of off the charts = depending on the signal
the inverter produces vs the dc ps power draw on the dc/ac box -

So., What to Do about This ????

* Design a small 12VDC power station or 2 where ever you sit to use your
laptop using battery packs, awg#12 (maybe 10awg ?) stranded cable &
cigarette type outlets - with the direct current fused protected power
cord for you Laptop of course - there are some very good rechargeable
packs you can use out at sea then recharging along with your regular
boat maintanance routine when you hit port again......This just won't
work if you cannot use your LT on your auto's electricity which you
should be able to straight up.

I would go Thrift Store Shopping before going to RS or any other
electronic dist., You'd be surprised at the amount of wallwarts, power
supplies, cables & gadgets that turn up there for a mere few bucks....

Roy Q.T.
Urban Technician
[I don't make em, I just fix em]

no_one

2007-09-18, 9:25 am

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <paul@hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:46EF5389.7B0F18F1@hovnanian.com...
> no_one wrote:
>
> The 12V laptop supply will probably be more efficient and less prone to
> incompatibilities between a 115V PS and an inverter.
>
> A good (not Radio Shack) inverter will provide more flexibility in the
> event 115 VAC is needed for other gizmos. It will, of course, be more
> expensive.
>
> --
> Paul Hovnanian mailto:Paul@Hovnanian.com
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Happily doing the work of 3 Men ... Moe, Larry & Curly

My friend decided to go with the 100W Anyplug adapter from Targus; It will
run from 110VAC, 12VDC, and whatever DC is used on commercial aircraft. I
appreciate all the info and opinions; I knew going in that there were
several ways to skin the cat and wanted to hear what others might do.

Again Thanks
Ron

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-18, 1:25 pm

Stephen wrote:
>
> On 17 Sep, 14:04, ChairmanOfTheBored <RUBo...@crackasmile.org> wrote:
>
> We are using plenty of UPSs where the inverter runs all the time.
> What you say could be true for a Standby UPS, however I suspect that
> even then the inverter is actually active, it's just not supplying
> power to the load. An on-line UPS will have its inverter actively
> powering the load all the time the UPS is switch on.

These are all off line UPS.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Stephen

2007-09-18, 1:25 pm

On 18 Sep, 17:36, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Stephen wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> These are all off line UPS.
>
> --
> Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
> prove it.
> Member of DAV #85.
>
> Michael A. Terrell
> Central Florida

So MGE are not telling the truth?

http://www.mgeops.com/index.php/pro...ts/ups/pulsar_m

[quote]
Modular on-line double conversion UPS.
Ideal protection for Servers, data storage, network equipment,
Telephony - VoIP & Medical equipment - Industrial processes.

* 2,200 / 3,000VA (2/3U)
* True On Line
* 0.9 PF
* Modular UPS
* Hot Swappable batteries
* 2 Load segments
* USB and RS232 ports
[/quote]

Maybe I should confront them about it, do you think?

Palindrome

2007-09-18, 5:25 pm

Stephen wrote:
> On 18 Sep, 17:36, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
[color=darkred]
>
> So MGE are not telling the truth?
>
> http://www.mgeops.com/index.php/pro...ts/ups/pulsar_m
>
> [quote]
> Modular on-line double conversion UPS.
> Ideal protection for Servers, data storage, network equipment,
> Telephony - VoIP & Medical equipment - Industrial processes.
>
> * 2,200 / 3,000VA (2/3U)
> * True On Line
> * 0.9 PF
> * Modular UPS
> * Hot Swappable batteries
> * 2 Load segments
> * USB and RS232 ports
> [/quote]
>
> Maybe I should confront them about it, do you think?
>

I suspect that they already know that UPS come in three flavours:
line-interactive, online and oiffline and that various manufacturers
make different types - some producing all three types.

Even within each type, there are very many different designs. Designs
for medium sized (2kVA<>10kVA ) tending to be rather different than
those <2kVA and >10kVA.

The poster you are replying to seems to be talking about his experience
with <1kVA units. Units that I rarely see so am quite prepared to accept
that they are difficult to get to start up without a good supply. I can
see that end of the market being very price-sensitive, so extra bells
and whistles, like a start button are not worth including. Also, I
assume that they mostly have very limited run time and are only intended
to smooth out power glitches and shut their systems down gracefully -
not run the system for tens of minutes/hours during an outage. So not
much use as a battery+inverter when no supply is present, even if they
could be started.

--
Sue

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-18, 5:25 pm

Stephen wrote:
>
> On 18 Sep, 17:36, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> So MGE are not telling the truth?
>
> http://www.mgeops.com/index.php/pro...ts/ups/pulsar_m
>
> [quote]
> Modular on-line double conversion UPS.
> Ideal protection for Servers, data storage, network equipment,
> Telephony - VoIP & Medical equipment - Industrial processes.
>
> * 2,200 / 3,000VA (2/3U)
> * True On Line
> * 0.9 PF
> * Modular UPS
> * Hot Swappable batteries
> * 2 Load segments
> * USB and RS232 ports
> [/quote]
>
> Maybe I should confront them about it, do you think?

WTF does that have to do with APC UPS in the < 1 KVA range? Have you
always had a reading comprehension problem, or is it from excessive
drinking and old age?

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-18, 5:25 pm

Palindrome wrote:
>
> Stephen wrote:
>
>
> I suspect that they already know that UPS come in three flavours:
> line-interactive, online and oiffline and that various manufacturers
> make different types - some producing all three types.
>
> Even within each type, there are very many different designs. Designs
> for medium sized (2kVA<>10kVA ) tending to be rather different than
> those <2kVA and >10kVA.
>
> The poster you are replying to seems to be talking about his experience
> with <1kVA units. Units that I rarely see so am quite prepared to accept
> that they are difficult to get to start up without a good supply. I can
> see that end of the market being very price-sensitive, so extra bells
> and whistles, like a start button are not worth including. Also, I
> assume that they mostly have very limited run time and are only intended
> to smooth out power glitches and shut their systems down gracefully -
> not run the system for tens of minutes/hours during an outage. So not
> much use as a battery+inverter when no supply is present, even if they
> could be started.

Who would put a 10 KVA online UPS on a small boat? It might weigh
more than the boat, itself.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Palindrome

2007-09-18, 5:25 pm

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> Palindrome wrote:
>
>
> Who would put a 10 KVA online UPS on a small boat? It might weigh
> more than the boat, itself.

>
>
One of the main manufacturers of floating gin palaces is just down the
road from me, in Plymouth (UK):

http://www.princessyachts.com

OK, not exactly "small boats". But they have oodles of amps...

--
Sue

Stephen

2007-09-18, 8:25 pm

On 18 Sep, 20:22, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
> Stephen wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> WTF does that have to do with APC UPS in the < 1 KVA range? Have you
> always had a reading comprehension problem, or is it from excessive
> drinking and old age?
>
> --
> Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
> prove it.
> Member of DAV #85.
>
> Michael A. Terrell
> Central Florida

Falcon SG series from 800VA true on-line
XP Energy Systems MSX series from 700VA true on-line
Liebert GXT2 Series from 500VA true on-line
AEC T1 Series from 500VA true on-line
Sinetech MHC Series from 700VA true on-line

Plenty of true on-line double conversion UPSs under 1kVA.

I have no comprehension problems, your 'these' could have referred to
any of the UPS ranges mentioned in the thread so far from my point of
view. So what I gather you were actually referring to were your UPSs.
I apologise for misunderstanding, but take issue with the rather
unfriendly manner in which you decided to point out my error, are you
always that rude?

I don't drink, and young enough thanks.

As for APC, no-one has mentioned APC before you did. We used some APC
UPSs years ago, which were 500VA, and we were able to start them
without line power. I can't remember the model though. They looked a
bit like the APC Smart-UPS range, but were cream rather than black, in
a 2U 19" rack format.

krw

2007-09-18, 8:25 pm

In article <46F025CE.4F10BD50@earthlink.net>,
mike.terrell@earthlink.net says...

>
> Who would put a 10 KVA online UPS on a small boat? It might weigh
> more than the boat, itself.

>

Well, ballast is often made out of lead. ;-)

--
Keith

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-19, 5:25 pm

Stephen wrote:
>
> On 18 Sep, 20:22, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> Falcon SG series from 800VA true on-line
> XP Energy Systems MSX series from 700VA true on-line
> Liebert GXT2 Series from 500VA true on-line
> AEC T1 Series from 500VA true on-line
> Sinetech MHC Series from 700VA true on-line
>
> Plenty of true on-line double conversion UPSs under 1kVA.
>
> I have no comprehension problems, your 'these' could have referred to
> any of the UPS ranges mentioned in the thread so far from my point of
> view. So what I gather you were actually referring to were your UPSs.
> I apologise for misunderstanding, but take issue with the rather
> unfriendly manner in which you decided to point out my error, are you
> always that rude?
>
> I don't drink, and young enough thanks.
>
> As for APC, no-one has mentioned APC before you did. We used some APC
> UPSs years ago, which were 500VA, and we were able to start them
> without line power. I can't remember the model though. They looked a
> bit like the APC Smart-UPS range, but were cream rather than black, in
> a 2U 19" rack format.

The ones I am talking about are for PCs, Why would you want a
rackmount UPS on a small boat? S 100 VA inverter would make more sense,
and wouldn't need to be hacked.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-19, 5:25 pm

Palindrome wrote:
>
> Michael A. Terrell wrote:
> One of the main manufacturers of floating gin palaces is just down the
> road from me, in Plymouth (UK):
>
> http://www.princessyachts.com
>
> OK, not exactly "small boats". But they have oodles of amps...

I installed a dual battery systems on a pair of paddlewheel boats at
Lesourdsville Lake, an amusement park in SW Ohio in the early '70s.
They insisted on using a 12 VDC to 120 VAC motor generator to run a tube
audio amplifier, and a broadcast cart deck for music. If the boat's
engine was shut off for more than ten minutes it wouldn't start. I
couldn't convince them to switch to 12 VDC 8-track or cassette decks, so
they spent about $1000 to buy two deep cycle batteries and two dual
chargers, plus the golden time labor to have them done for an after prom
party. We worked all night to get the two boats ready, and we were just
leaving the dock when the carloads of kids started to show up.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-19, 5:25 pm

krw wrote:
>
> In article <46F025CE.4F10BD50@earthlink.net>,
> mike.terrell@earthlink.net says...
>
>
> Well, ballast is often made out of lead. ;-)

So are balloons! ;-)

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

krw

2007-09-19, 8:25 pm

In article <46F17105.43BBD7D8@earthlink.net>,
mike.terrell@earthlink.net says...
> krw wrote:
>
>
> So are balloons! ;-)

Been to one of Dimbulb's parties?

--
Keith

Michael A. Terrell

2007-09-19, 8:25 pm

krw wrote:
>
> In article <46F17105.43BBD7D8@earthlink.net>,
> mike.terrell@earthlink.net says...
>
> Been to one of Dimbulb's parties?

Parties? Did he finally get the permit from the EPA?

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

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