Electrical Engineering - Combining wires

Author

Combining wires

redwingii@comcast.net

2008-01-22, 8:25 pm

I have a cat5 wire run already and want to put in an item that wants
18g wire. I know Cat5 is 24g. Can I combine multiple strands to make
it work? If so, how many does it need?

Bill Shymanski

2008-01-23, 3:25 am

redwingii@comcast.net wrote:
> I have a cat5 wire run already and want to put in an item that wants
> 18g wire. I know Cat5 is 24g. Can I combine multiple strands to make
> it work? If so, how many does it need?

The item "wants" 18 gauge wire? Why don't you ask it its feelings about
working with 24 gauge wire? Stress to it that change is good, that we
all need to adapt to challenging economic times, that there's a Chinese
item out there itching to to the same job with only 28 gauge wire - you
know, the usual management skills. Perhaps your item will then consider
that it wants to work with 24 gauge wire.

The answer is of course " Maybe". This isn't really an engineering
question - why wasn't the right size wire installed in the first place?
Have you done enough analysis and do you understand the application
well enough to guarantee to your client that the proposed botch-up will
actually work? What is your professional liability exposure here? If it
comes down to a lawsuit, can you show you've exercised enough due
diligence to protect yourself from allegations of professional
incompetence?

If you've managed to build a 36 story building with every office wired
with the wrong cable, I suggest you obtain legal advice.

However, if you're another hobbyist wondering if his newly-invented
automatic Internet-controlled squirrel proof bird feeder is going to
work, the answer is of course "Try it and find out".

Bill

(who's getting tired of trying to be a mind reader on the news groups...
"I've done something that I don't understand, please tell me it will be
all right under all circumstances which I don't know about.")

John G

2008-01-23, 3:25 am

<redwingii@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:f65b5a89-66ae-4cb9-90d7-7196289abe7e@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>I have a cat5 wire run already and want to put in an item that wants
> 18g wire. I know Cat5 is 24g. Can I combine multiple strands to make
> it work? If so, how many does it need?

If it is a device that should be connected to a Cat5 cable then it will
work happily on a standard Cat5 cable.

What the devil is your application that wants Cat5 but does not
understand what Cat 5 is??

Clue ---- Cat 5 is for Ethernet SIGNALS and no serious current so the
wire gauge should not be a concern and is not if it is a CAT5 complient
device.

--
John G.

Dave Martindale

2008-01-23, 3:25 am

redwingii@comcast.net writes:
>I have a cat5 wire run already and want to put in an item that wants
>18g wire. I know Cat5 is 24g. Can I combine multiple strands to make
>it work? If so, how many does it need?

To a first approximation, the wire diameter doubles for every change of
6 in AWG, while current carrying capacity doubles for every change of 3.
So 18 AWG has 4 times the current capacity of AWG 24, and four wires of
AWG 24 in parallel should be equivalent to AWG 18. in DC current
carrying capacity. AC characteristics like capacitance and inductance
depend on exactly *which* wires you tie together to make your 18-gauge
equivalent wire.

Dave

Stuart

2008-01-23, 9:25 am

In article <4796f258$0$17212$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
John G <Greentest@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

> Clue ---- Cat 5 is for Ethernet SIGNALS and no serious current so the
> wire gauge should not be a concern and is not if it is a CAT5 complient
> device.

And it's only rated for LOW voltage!

--
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

charles

2008-01-23, 9:25 am

In article <4f659a94bfSW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com>,
Stuart <SW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> In article <4796f258$0$17212$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
> John G <Greentest@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

[color=darkred]
> And it's only rated for LOW voltage!

In the UK "Low voltage" means 'not exceeding 1000v ac or 1500V dc between
conductors'. I suspect you mean "extra low voltage" - 'not exceeding 50v
ac ..'

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-01-23, 9:25 am

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:33:13 +0000 (GMT) charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
| In article <4f659a94bfSW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com>,
| Stuart <SW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
|> In article <4796f258$0$17212$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
|> John G <Greentest@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
|
|> > Clue ---- Cat 5 is for Ethernet SIGNALS and no serious current so the
|> > wire gauge should not be a concern and is not if it is a CAT5 complient
|> > device.
|
|> And it's only rated for LOW voltage!
|
|
| In the UK "Low voltage" means 'not exceeding 1000v ac or 1500V dc between
| conductors'. I suspect you mean "extra low voltage" - 'not exceeding 50v
| ac ..'

The boundaries of low voltage vs. high voltage (and maybe even medium
voltage) vary depending on the type of usage. Electric utilities will
refer to 240 volts as low voltage because they never deal with things
at 12 volts. Lighting systems will refer to 12 volts as low voltage
and 120 volts as high voltage. The context needs to be established for
a correct understanding of "low" vs. "high" for voltage.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-01-23-0752@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Palindrome

2008-01-23, 9:25 am

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:33:13 +0000 (GMT) charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> | In article <4f659a94bfSW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com>,
> | Stuart <SW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> |> In article <4796f258$0$17212$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au>,
> |> John G <Greentest@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> |
> |> > Clue ---- Cat 5 is for Ethernet SIGNALS and no serious current so the
> |> > wire gauge should not be a concern and is not if it is a CAT5 complient
> |> > device.
> |
> |> And it's only rated for LOW voltage!
> |
> |
> | In the UK "Low voltage" means 'not exceeding 1000v ac or 1500V dc between
> | conductors'. I suspect you mean "extra low voltage" - 'not exceeding 50v
> | ac ..'
>
> The boundaries of low voltage vs. high voltage (and maybe even medium
> voltage) vary depending on the type of usage. Electric utilities will
> refer to 240 volts as low voltage because they never deal with things
> at 12 volts. Lighting systems will refer to 12 volts as low voltage
> and 120 volts as high voltage. The context needs to be established for
> a correct understanding of "low" vs. "high" for voltage.
>
Erm, no, not for those in the electrical engineering profession* in the
UK. "Low voltage" is a definition, not open to interpretation depending
on the application.

*and this is an electrical engineering newsgroup.

It is extremely dangerous to misuse these definitions. In electrical
engineering terms, in the UK, 12v is *never* correctly described as "low
voltage".

Just as "very low frequency" is precisely defined for communications
engineering. 100kHz may sound like a very low frequency to an rf
engineer - but it would never be described as such. Neither would 2400Hz.

--
Sue

charles

2008-01-23, 1:25 pm

In article <VYHlj.52513$rO3.15503@fe04.news.easynews.com>,
Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:

> Just as "very low frequency" is precisely defined for communications
> engineering. 100kHz may sound like a very low frequency to an rf
> engineer - but it would never be described as such. Neither would 2400Hz.

I used to have a constant arguement with a colleague about the usage of
5MHz. To me, with a tv studio background it was baseband - to him, a
transmitter engineer, with a short wave bias, it was rf.

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

Stuart

2008-01-23, 1:25 pm

In article <4f65be439acharles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <VYHlj.52513$rO3.15503@fe04.news.easynews.com>,
> Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:

VLF was shore to submarine communications frequencies or the carrier
frequency of MSF.

R4 Droitwich was classed as LF at 198kHz
[color=darkred]
> I used to have a constant arguement with a colleague about the usage of
> 5MHz. To me, with a tv studio background it was baseband - to him, a
> transmitter engineer, with a short wave bias, it was rf.

And to me - another transmitter engineer who, before retirement was
repairing SHF links, it's slowly varying DC :-)

--
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

Stuart

2008-01-23, 1:25 pm

In article <4f65af3c14charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk>,
charles <charles@charleshope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <4f659a94bfSW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com>,
> Stuart <SW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]

[color=darkred]
> In the UK "Low voltage" means 'not exceeding 1000v ac or 1500V dc between
> conductors'. I suspect you mean "extra low voltage" - 'not exceeding 50v
> ac ..'

Yes, thank you Charles, I am aware of the differences, just talking
"loosely". Not sure that the OP would be aware hence the capitalisation of
the word low to emphasise the fact.

Not sure what he is considering doing but I suspect he is somewhat lacking
in knowledge of electrics and where he is, the terminology may be
different to the UK anyway.

I could say I have been an "authorised person" for the purposes of the HV
switchgear rules but would anyone outside the UK know what that meant?

--
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

VWWall

2008-01-23, 1:25 pm

Palindrome wrote:

> Just as "very low frequency" is precisely defined for communications
> engineering. 100kHz may sound like a very low frequency to an rf
> engineer - but it would never be described as such. Neither would 2400Hz.

During WWII, there was a term, UHFI, which I believe originated in the
UK. It was: Ultra High Frequency Indeed

--

Virg Wall, PE

**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**

2008-01-23, 8:25 pm

Here in the US "Low Voltage" is 60 volts or less. This means that you
won't get fried working with "Low Voltage" wiring. In the UK it must be
tough to have to say, "poor Uncle Albert, he was electrocuted climbing
the "Low Voltage" pole!

charles wrote:

> (snip)
>
>
>In the UK "Low voltage" means 'not exceeding 1000v ac or 1500V dc between
>conductors'. I suspect you mean "extra low voltage" - 'not exceeding 50v
>ac ..'
>
>
>

--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"©

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

"Follow The Money" ;-P

**THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**

2008-01-23, 8:25 pm

charles wrote:

>In article <4f659a94bfSW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com>,
> Stuart <SW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>In the UK "Low voltage" means 'not exceeding 1000v ac or 1500V dc between
>conductors'. I suspect you mean "extra low voltage" - 'not exceeding 50v
>ac ..'
>
>
>
In the US we also used to have a class of people called "millionaires".
Until about 2004 these were relatively wealthy individuals with
retirement savings. Today these same folks are considered "middle class"
and when they "retire" you will likely be greeted by them as you enter
a Walmart store. You can't miss them wearing their blue smock.

--
Joe Leikhim K4SAT
"The RFI-EMI-GUY"©

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

"Follow The Money" ;-P

gfretwell@aol.com

2008-01-24, 3:25 am

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:07:31 -0500, **THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**
<rhyolite@nettally.com> wrote:

>Here in the US "Low Voltage" is 60 volts or less. This means that you
>won't get fried working with "Low Voltage" wiring

Actually it is 30v if you are talking about the NEC article 725 and
600v if you are using the NESC (utilities)

Palindrome

2008-01-24, 3:25 am

gfretwell@aol.com wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:07:31 -0500, **THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**
> <rhyolite@nettally.com> wrote:
>
>
> Actually it is 30v if you are talking about the NEC article 725 and
> 600v if you are using the NESC (utilities)

There is a risk that an engineer used to one set of defintions could get
a nasty shock, literally, if he came to the UK and took up a job working
on "low voltage" systems..Unlikely though, as most engineers that have
lived long enough to be called "experienced" ...always double check.

Having written that, as a young apprentice I very nearly had several
experiences of a lifetime..I tend to check three times ever since.

--
Sue

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-01-24, 5:25 pm

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:14:13 GMT Palindrome <me9@privacy.net> wrote:

| Erm, no, not for those in the electrical engineering profession* in the
| UK. "Low voltage" is a definition, not open to interpretation depending
| on the application.
|
| *and this is an electrical engineering newsgroup.

So classify each of the following voltages according to the UK definition:

24 volts
240 volts
2400 volts
24000 volts
240000 volts

| It is extremely dangerous to misuse these definitions. In electrical
| engineering terms, in the UK, 12v is *never* correctly described as "low
| voltage".

I'll remember that in case I ever visit UK.

| Just as "very low frequency" is precisely defined for communications
| engineering. 100kHz may sound like a very low frequency to an rf
| engineer - but it would never be described as such. Neither would 2400Hz.

I've never seen any such standard with regard to voltage. Of course, I've
not been in UK since ... ever.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-01-24-1634@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-01-24, 5:25 pm

On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:10:56 -0500 gfretwell@aol.com wrote:

| On Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:07:31 -0500, **THE-RFI-EMI-GUY**
| <rhyolite@nettally.com> wrote:
|
|>Here in the US "Low Voltage" is 60 volts or less. This means that you
|>won't get fried working with "Low Voltage" wiring
|
| Actually it is 30v if you are talking about the NEC article 725 and
| 600v if you are using the NESC (utilities)

The US isn't following UK standards. We haven't for over 240 years.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-01-24-1637@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Roy

2008-01-25, 3:25 am

That's fucking ridiculous - Low Voltage shouldn't be more than 45-60
volts like use by telephone companies, commonly it's 12/16/24 volts or
less - dam brits are so smart but call household current low voltage?
it's known to have killed people - all to say anything less is very low
voltage.That's not right & a bit too prissy.

Remind me to ne'er do electrical work when visiting England }

Roy Q.T.
Urban Technician
[I don't make em, I just fix em]

charles

2008-01-25, 9:25 am

In article <6516-4799A7B7-267@storefull-3255.bay.webtv.net>,
Roy <ROYKEY@webtv.net> wrote:
> That's fucking ridiculous - Low Voltage shouldn't be more than 45-60
> volts like use by telephone companies, commonly it's 12/16/24 volts or
> less - dam brits are so smart but call household current low voltage?
> it's known to have killed people - all to say anything less is very low
> voltage.That's not right & a bit too prissy.

> Remind me to ne'er do electrical work when visiting England }

That would probably be best for all of us.

--
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

Roy

2008-01-26, 3:25 am

From: (charles)
In article
Roy wrote:
SNIPP<
Remind me to ne'er do electrical work when visiting England }

----------
That would probably be best for all of us.

From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"
Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11 ------------------
Charles you don't know me or how I work., I could do a world of good
anywhere I apply my skills & talents.

It's a matter of needs over pride - some folk are much to proud to adimt
they actually need anyone or anything done until their vexed ....

Those that have looked to me for electrical solutions either mental or
material have found more than they expected & far more than their means
& needs could afford - that's more than I have ever received from
humanity at large......but we're still hopeful & spinnng on the same
planet.

Tomorrow it may rain in color$ }

Roy Q.T.
Urban Technician
[I don't make em, I just fix em]

Stuart

2008-01-26, 9:25 am

In article <1709-479AF3AE-674@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net>,
Roy <ROYKEY@webtv.net> wrote:
> Charles you don't know me or how I work., I could do a world of good
> anywhere I apply my skills & talents.

Well if you did you'd have to work to UK regulations which, IMHO, are
tighter than the US.

--
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-01-26, 1:25 pm

On Sat, 26 Jan 2008 11:08:37 +0000 (GMT) Stuart <SW_NOSPAM@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:

| In article <1709-479AF3AE-674@storefull-3252.bay.webtv.net>,
| Roy <ROYKEY@webtv.net> wrote:
|> Charles you don't know me or how I work., I could do a world of good
|> anywhere I apply my skills & talents.
|
| Well if you did you'd have to work to UK regulations which, IMHO, are
| tighter than the US.

Like disallowing wire nuts. That's one I would like to see adopted in US.
But then, I'm one of those with the "hidden agenda" of changing the US to
240 volts (though with each wire at half that relative to ground).

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-01-26-1003@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

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