Electrical Engineering - grounding old outlet

Author

grounding old outlet

David Azose

2008-02-02, 5:25 pm

I couldn't find any other user group, so if this is not the right one, I
apologize.

I have some knob and tube wiring accessible from my basement going to
several old (2 wire) receptacles. Can I simply connect a ground(ing)
wire from a near-by gas pipe to new 3 wire receptacles, or must the
ground(ing) wire be connected to the ground bus of the main circuit
panel box?

Thanks for any help.

David A.

Michael A. Terrell

2008-02-02, 8:25 pm

David Azose wrote:
>
> I couldn't find any other user group, so if this is not the right one, I
> apologize.
>
> I have some knob and tube wiring accessible from my basement going to
> several old (2 wire) receptacles. Can I simply connect a ground(ing)
> wire from a near-by gas pipe to new 3 wire receptacles, or must the
> ground(ing) wire be connected to the ground bus of the main circuit
> panel box?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> David A.

Sure, if you like really big explosions. Otherwise, run the wire
back to the breaker or fuse box, where it belongs.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Gerald Newton

2008-02-03, 3:25 am

On Feb 2, 11:41=A0am, David Azose <draz...@comcast.net> wrote:
> I couldn't find any other user group, so if this is not the right one, I
> apologize.
>
> I have some knob and tube wiring accessible from my basement going to
> several old (2 wire) receptacles. Can I simply connect a ground(ing)
> wire from a near-by gas pipe to new 3 wire receptacles, or must the
> ground(ing) wire be connected to the ground bus of the main circuit
> panel box?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> David A.

I wrote an Article on this that might help you. It is based on the
1996 NEC, but most of it still applies.
It is at: http://www.electrician2.com/articles/grndrec.htm

I do these things because my SS card is worn out and my DD214 is
moldy.
My mind is sane but my body is limping along.
And it is below freezing for 6 months in North Pole, Alaska.

bud--

2008-02-03, 3:25 am

David Azose wrote:
> I couldn't find any other user group, so if this is not the right one, I
> apologize.
>
> I have some knob and tube wiring accessible from my basement going to
> several old (2 wire) receptacles. Can I simply connect a ground(ing)
> wire from a near-by gas pipe to new 3 wire receptacles, or must the
> ground(ing) wire be connected to the ground bus of the main circuit
> panel box?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> David A.

The receptacle ground wire can be connected to anywhere on the grounding
electrode system including the heavy wires from service to the grounding
electrodes (grounding electrode conductors) and, if the water pipe is
used as a grounding electrode, the 1st 5 ft of water pipe inside the
building. Also the panel ground bar (which is usually the same as the
neutral bar at the service). Don't use the gas pipe.

GFCI grounding type receptacles can be installed on K&T wiring. There
will be no ground, but the GFCI will provide shock protection. Apply the
"No equipment ground" label provided.

Grounding type receptacles can be installed IF downstream, and protected
by, a GFCI receptacle or circuit breaker. Apply the labels supplied: "No
equipment ground" and "GFCI protected".

alt.home.repair gets more US wiring questions but asking on this news
group is fine.

--
bud--

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-02-03, 1:25 pm

On Sat, 02 Feb 2008 12:41:51 -0800 David Azose <drazose@comcast.net> wrote:

| I couldn't find any other user group, so if this is not the right one, I
| apologize.

This is a good enough place for this issue.

| I have some knob and tube wiring accessible from my basement going to
| several old (2 wire) receptacles. Can I simply connect a ground(ing)
| wire from a near-by gas pipe to new 3 wire receptacles, or must the
| ground(ing) wire be connected to the ground bus of the main circuit
| panel box?

It MUST be connected to the ground bus of the main circuit panel. Since
you mentioned "main" I presume either the circuits involved truly originate
only at the main panel, as opposed to a sub panel, or you only have one
panel.

Although the grounding wire does not normally carry electrical current, it
would carry such current when there is a short circuit between a line wire
inside an appliance or outlet box, and the containing grounded box. The
intent is for this short circuit to briefly carry a high enough current to
quickly burn out a fuse or trip a circuit breaker. What you do not want
is for such a short circuit to ignite a gas explosion.

Furthermore, electricity travels in a loop (called a circuit). That's why
there are two wires (or more in certain cases) carrying current in any
circuit. There is also a magnetic field established between these wires.
By keeping the wires close together, that magnetic field is limited in size.
If the wires were spread apart too far, the magenetic field would be wider
and would induce electrical currents on other metallic objects. The
grounding wire needs to follow the other two wires in the circuit for this
reason. That short circuit that could happen could result in a very large
current and strong magnetic field for a brief instant (until the fuse or
breaker opens the circuit), and that field could cause other problems in
addition to impeding the fault current flow intended to blow the fuse or
trip the breaker.

Also, the gas pipe itself may not have a good solid return path to the
electrical source to allow the full fault current flow.

Ask yourself: Do I think it is cool to have 1000 amps of electricity flow
over my gas pipe? Do I even want to live nearby anyone who does that?

With all that said, I would not add grounding to any knob and tube circuit.
Either I would leave the K&T circuit untouched, or replace it entirely with
an appropriate wiring job with NM, UF, or MC cables, or THHN or THWN in
conduit, depending on the circumstances and local requirements.

Do note that a GFCI outlet _will_ work (it will both provide the intended
protection as well as having the test button function correctly) on an
ungrounded circuit. You would just need to mark the outlet as having no
grounding (I might fill in the grounding pin hole with a hard resin, but
I don't know if that is legal to modify it as such).

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-02-03-1042@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Frank

2008-02-03, 5:25 pm

"David Azose" <drazose@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Ividndw25t4NSDnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com...
>I couldn't find any other user group, so if this is not the right one, I
>apologize.
>
> I have some knob and tube wiring accessible from my basement going to
> several old (2 wire) receptacles. Can I simply connect a ground(ing) wire
> from a near-by gas pipe to new 3 wire receptacles, or must the ground(ing)
> wire be connected to the ground bus of the main circuit panel box?
>
> Thanks for any help.
>
> David A.

alt.home.repair is a big group which you could direct this question to. You
could also try alt.construction and alt.building.construction. You already
have some good answers here. I was thinking about the same thing on one of
my properties with 1950 vintage K&T installation. I would just rip
everything out, replace with Romax and a new panel - don't want the K&T
hanging over my head for insurance reasons and easier to sell the property
once this real estate crises is over in California.

Long Ranger

2008-02-04, 3:25 am

Michael A. Terrell

2008-02-04, 3:25 am

Gerald Newton wrote:
>
> On Feb 2, 11:41 am, David Azose <draz...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> I wrote an Article on this that might help you. It is based on the
> 1996 NEC, but most of it still applies.
> It is at: http://www.electrician2.com/articles/grndrec.htm
>
> I do these things because my SS card is worn out and my DD214 is
> moldy.

<http://www.archives.gov/veterans/mi...ce-records.html>
to replace that mold. ;-)

> My mind is sane but my body is limping along.

> And it is below freezing for 6 months in North Pole, Alaska.

You poor baby!

I spent a year at Ft. Greely (Delta Junction) in
the '70s. I was one of the engineers at the AFRTS radio & TV stations
there. The Gates BC250 AM transmitter could be heard all the way to
Fairbanks, if you were within a mile of the Alaskan power grid. We we
referred to as 'The worlds largest carrier current station' due to the
fact that the grid was built directly over, and parallel to out center
tapped dipole cut for 980 KHz.

BTW, Ft Greely was colder than fairbanks, every day that I was
stationed there. I guess that's why the US Army used the base as their
cold weather test site?

I rode 'The green weenie' through North Pole a couple times a month,
just to get a pizza in Fairbanks. two weeks after I left for home, that
bus went off the side of the mountain with several of my friends aboard.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-02-04, 9:25 am

On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:00:36 -0800 Long Ranger <lorpkins@earthlink .net> wrote:
|
| "David Azose" <drazose@comcast.net> wrote in message
| news:Ividndw25t4NSDnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com...
|>I couldn't find any other user group, so if this is not the right one, I
|>apologize.
|>
|> I have some knob and tube wiring accessible from my basement going to
|> several old (2 wire) receptacles. Can I simply connect a ground(ing) wire
|> from a near-by gas pipe to new 3 wire receptacles, or must the ground(ing)
|> wire be connected to the ground bus of the main circuit panel box?
|>
|> Thanks for any help.
|>
|> David A.
|
| Normally, if you can fish a grounding conductor into a flush receptacle, you
| can also get a piece of romex in there. Why not just run some new circuitry
| from the box to the panel?

The romex will cost more (more copper inside). Maybe he's trying to save
money. IMHO, that is a bad way to save money, but maybe that is his motive.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-02-04-0747@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Roy

2008-02-05, 3:25 am

From: phil-news-nospam@ipal.net
On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:00:36 -0800 Long Ranger <lorpkins@earthlink .net>
wrote:
|
| "David Azose" <drazose@comcast.net> wrote in message |
news:Ividndw25t4NSDnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com...

I couldn't find any other user group, so if this is not the right one, I
apologize.
I have some knob and tube wiring accessible from my basement going to
several old (2 wire) receptacles. Can I simply connect a ground(ing)
wire from a near-by gas pipe to new 3 wire receptacles, or must the
ground(ing) wire be connected to the ground bus of the main circuit
panel box?
Thanks for any help.
David A.
--------------
| Normally, if you can fish a grounding conductor into a flush
receptacle, you | can also get a piece of romex in there. Why not just
run some new circuitry | from the box to the panel?
------------------------------
The romex will cost more (more copper inside). Maybe he's trying to save
money. IMHO, that is a bad way to save money, but maybe that is his
motive.
--
Phil Howard KA9WGN
------------------------------------/

Maybe he just wants to maintain it as original as possible - you know
keep that antique look, but have it safely grounded }

if so., I'd
place a GFCI on the circuit/s as suggested, change the 2 to 3 prong
recepts. if totally necessary and leave the rest alone.

Roy Q.T. ~ US/NCU ~ E.E. Technician
[have tools, will travel]

David Azose

2008-02-05, 9:25 am

Roy wrote:
> From: phil-news-nospam@ipal.net
> On Sun, 3 Feb 2008 22:00:36 -0800 Long Ranger <lorpkins@earthlink .net>
> wrote:
> |
> | "David Azose" <drazose@comcast.net> wrote in message |
> news:Ividndw25t4NSDnanZ2dnUVZ_qOknZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> I couldn't find any other user group, so if this is not the right one, I
> apologize.
> I have some knob and tube wiring accessible from my basement going to
> several old (2 wire) receptacles. Can I simply connect a ground(ing)
> wire from a near-by gas pipe to new 3 wire receptacles, or must the
> ground(ing) wire be connected to the ground bus of the main circuit
> panel box?
> Thanks for any help.
> David A.
> --------------
> | Normally, if you can fish a grounding conductor into a flush
> receptacle, you | can also get a piece of romex in there. Why not just
> run some new circuitry | from the box to the panel?
> ------------------------------
> The romex will cost more (more copper inside). Maybe he's trying to save
> money. IMHO, that is a bad way to save money, but maybe that is his
> motive.
> --
> Phil Howard KA9WGN
> ------------------------------------/
>
> Maybe he just wants to maintain it as original as possible - you know
> keep that antique look, but have it safely grounded }

if so., I'd
> place a GFCI on the circuit/s as suggested, change the 2 to 3 prong
> recepts. if totally necessary and leave the rest alone.
>
> Roy Q.T. ~ US/NCU ~ E.E. Technician
> [have tools, will travel]
>
Thanks to all who replied with advice. I've decided to run some ground
wire from the neutral bus of the panel to each of the 2 receptacles and
replace the 2 prong with newer three prong receptacles.

David A.

Roy

2008-02-05, 1:25 pm

From:David=A0Azose

Thanks to all who replied with advice. I've decided to run some ground
wire from the neutral bus of the panel to each of the 2 receptacles and
replace the 2 prong with newer three prong receptacles. David A.
* --------------------- *

David Please Take Notice

You've Been Forewarned - If you proceed as you have decidedly describe
above you will experience explosion through-out your electrical system -
the 3rd wires cannot go on the neutral buss bar.

What you need is an Equipment Ground to Earth - Get Professional help if
you are not familiar with what needs to be done.

You should have a seperate Ground Buss Bar adverse to the Neutral Bar in
the panel, which would be connected to an external grounding rod to
earth and from hence you derive your Equipment/Earth Ground Conductor =3D
3rd Prong/Green Terminal Screw...

Roy Q.T. ~ US/NCU ~ E.E. Technician
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0[have tools, will travel]

Dave22

2008-02-05, 1:25 pm

On Feb 5, 8:45 am, ROY...@webtv.net (Roy) wrote:
> From:David Azose
>
> Thanks to all who replied with advice. I've decided to run some ground
> wire from the neutral bus of the panel to each of the 2 receptacles and
> replace the 2 prong with newer three prong receptacles. David A.
> * --------------------- *
>
> David Please Take Notice
>
> You've Been Forewarned - If you proceed as you have decidedly describe
> above you will experience explosion through-out your electrical system -
> the 3rd wires cannot go on the neutral buss bar.
>
> What you need is an Equipment Ground to Earth - Get Professional help if
> you are not familiar with what needs to be done.
>
> You should have a seperate Ground Buss Bar adverse to the Neutral Bar in
> the panel, which would be connected to an external grounding rod to
> earth and from hence you derive your Equipment/Earth Ground Conductor =
> 3rd Prong/Green Terminal Screw...
>
> Roy Q.T. ~ US/NCU ~ E.E. Technician
> [have tools, will travel]

While in general I agree with you there are two points that make your
warning unnecessary

1. Per the NEC in the US for all main panels, the neutral bar and the
ground bar are bonded in the panel, thus at this one point they are
equal.

2. A house with knob and tube wiring was probably built in the 40s or
50s at the latest. At that time separate ground and neutral bars were
not provided in panels. All neutrals and grounds were terminated on
the same bar, sometimes in the same hole! This was the accepted
practice at the time.

I think that with the minor correction in the wording to connect the
new grounding conductors to the point where the building grounding
conductor is terminated will clarify the issue.

Dave

Master Electrician (ret)

Roy

2008-02-05, 1:25 pm

Re: grounding old outlet

Group: alt.engineering.electrical Date: Tue, Feb 5, 2008, 9:17am (EST-3)
From: dsquier1@earthlink.net (Dave22)
On Feb 5, 8:45 am, ROY...@webtv.net (Roy) wrote:
From:David Azose
Thanks to all who replied with advice. I've decided to run some ground
wire from the neutral bus of the panel to each of the 2 receptacles and
replace the 2 prong with newer three prong receptacles. David A.
* --------------------- *
David Please Take Notice
You've Been Forewarned - If you proceed as you have decidedly describe
above you will experience explosion through-out your electrical system -
the 3rd wires cannot go on the neutral buss bar.
What you need is an Equipment Ground to Earth - Get Professional help if
you are not familiar with what needs to be done.
You should have a seperate Ground Buss Bar adverse to the Neutral Bar in
the panel, which would be connected to an external grounding rod to
earth and from hence you derive your Equipment/Earth Ground Conductor =3D
3rd Prong/Green Terminal Screw...
Roy Q.T. ~ US/NCU ~ E.E. Technician
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0[have tools, will travel]
--------------------------
=A0=A0While in general I agree with you there are two points that make
your warning unnecessary

[[[ I was Quoting a previous response]]]

1. Per the NEC in the US for all main panels, the neutral bar and the
ground bar are bonded in the panel, thus at this one point they are
equal.

[[[[Not So Equal for Conductors, mixing Ground & Neutral conductors to
These Separate & Distinctive Bars from devices at the panel will result
in tripped breakers & cause explosions if wired while in use, as in His
case]]]]]

2. A house with knob and tube wiring was probably built in the 40s or
50s at the latest. At that time separate ground and neutral bars were
not provided in panels. All neutrals and grounds were terminated on the
same bar, sometimes in the same hole! This was the accepted practice at
the time.

I think that with the minor correction in the wording to connect the new
grounding conductors to the point where the building grounding conductor
is terminated will clarify the issue.
Dave
Master Electrician (ret)
-------------------------------

Dave You Know This well - He apparently doesn't - as I said, I'd keep it
Minty and just change my breakers to GFI's}

.,

What if he's bonded at the Meter Panel instead ? & probably grounded to
the streetside of his water intake valve, as in many older dwellings.

Doesn't The NEC have a provision that covers the inclusion of a New &
Separate Ground Buss Bar in such panels?, I may be wrong.

Thanks for your Brief & Concise Clarification......He sure needs it.

Roy Q.T. ~ US/NCU ~ E.E. Technician
[have tools, will travel]

ChrisCoaster

2008-02-05, 5:25 pm

On Feb 2, 7:36=A0pm, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:

>
> =A0 =A0Sure, if you like really big explosions. =A0Otherwise, run the wire=

> back to the breaker or fuse box, where it belongs.
>
> --
> Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
> prove it.
> Member of DAV #85.
>
> Michael A. Terrell
> Central Florida

You mean like this??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DF5...ature=3Drelated

:D

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-02-06, 3:25 am

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 05:43:02 -0800 David Azose <drazose@comcast.net> wrote:

| Thanks to all who replied with advice. I've decided to run some ground
| wire from the neutral bus of the panel to each of the 2 receptacles and
| replace the 2 prong with newer three prong receptacles.

Connecting the ground wire to the neutral bus is ONLY valid for the MAIN
panel, because in the main panel, the neutral and ground are bonded together.
So either bus bar can serve either purpose. Still, it is preferred to keep
them separate, anyway. However, on a sub panel, the neutral and ground bus
bars MUST be kept separate. The ground wire must be connected to the ground
bus only. The neutral wire must be connected to the neutral bus only. Be
sure you are doing this right. If your main panel has only one ground/neutral
bus, then just connect to it. If it has two bus bars but ground and neutral
connections for other circuits are mixed up, don't worry. If they are kept
separate already, follow the scheme and continue to keep them separate.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-02-05-2253@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Long Ranger

2008-02-07, 3:25 am

You've Been Forewarned - If you proceed as you have decidedly describe
above you will experience explosion through-out your electrical system -
the 3rd wires cannot go on the neutral buss bar.

What you need is an Equipment Ground to Earth - Get Professional help if
you are not familiar with what needs to be done.

Here in the US, the neutral and ground buss are the same in the service
panel. Once you feed a secondary panel, they are then separated. Even then,
it will not be catostrophic problem unless you lose your neutral path,
(which is why they are separated in that instance).

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-02-07, 9:25 am

On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:46:13 -0800 Long Ranger <lorpkins@earthlink .net> wrote:

| You've Been Forewarned - If you proceed as you have decidedly describe
| above you will experience explosion through-out your electrical system -
| the 3rd wires cannot go on the neutral buss bar.

Wiring ground wires tu neutral bus will not lead to explosions. Instead,
it will lead to deaths of people. Of course these descriptions are all
about the extreme possible events. But why add risk when you don't need
to. Do the job correctly in the first place. If you have any doubt at
all what is correct, hire a professional.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-02-07-0838@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

ehsjr

2008-02-08, 3:25 am

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:46:13 -0800 Long Ranger <lorpkins@earthlink .net> wrote:
>
> | You've Been Forewarned - If you proceed as you have decidedly describe
> | above you will experience explosion through-out your electrical system -
> | the 3rd wires cannot go on the neutral buss bar.
>
> Wiring ground wires tu neutral bus will not lead to explosions. Instead,
> it will lead to deaths of people.

No it won't. The neutral bus and the ground bus are
bonded in the panel.

Ed

Of course these descriptions are all
> about the extreme possible events. But why add risk when you don't need
> to. Do the job correctly in the first place. If you have any doubt at
> all what is correct, hire a professional.
>

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-02-08, 9:25 am

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 05:30:30 GMT ehsjr <ehsjr@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
| phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|> On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:46:13 -0800 Long Ranger <lorpkins@earthlink .net> wrote:
|>
|> | You've Been Forewarned - If you proceed as you have decidedly describe
|> | above you will experience explosion through-out your electrical system -
|> | the 3rd wires cannot go on the neutral buss bar.
|>
|> Wiring ground wires tu neutral bus will not lead to explosions. Instead,
|> it will lead to deaths of people.
|
| No it won't. The neutral bus and the ground bus are
| bonded in the panel.

That is only in a service entrance main panel where the connection to the
grounding electrodes come in as well. In a subpanel, everything is kept
separate.

| Ed
|
| Of course these descriptions are all
|> about the extreme possible events. But why add risk when you don't need
|> to. Do the job correctly in the first place. If you have any doubt at
|> all what is correct, hire a professional.
|>

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-02-08-0826@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

ehsjr

2008-02-08, 1:25 pm

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 05:30:30 GMT ehsjr <ehsjr@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
> | phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
> |> On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:46:13 -0800 Long Ranger <lorpkins@earthlink .net> wrote:
> |>
> |> | You've Been Forewarned - If you proceed as you have decidedly describe
> |> | above you will experience explosion through-out your electrical system -
> |> | the 3rd wires cannot go on the neutral buss bar.
> |>
> |> Wiring ground wires tu neutral bus will not lead to explosions. Instead,
> |> it will lead to deaths of people.
> |
> | No it won't. The neutral bus and the ground bus are
> | bonded in the panel.
>
> That is only in a service entrance main panel where the connection to the
> grounding electrodes come in as well. In a subpanel, everything is kept
> separate.

I thought you were talking about the main panel based
on your post of 2/3:
"It MUST be connected to the ground bus of the main circuit panel. Since
you mentioned "main" I presume either the circuits involved truly originate
only at the main panel, as opposed to a sub panel, or you only have one
panel."

Also, you didn't mention sub-panel in the post to which
I responded, so it was not evident you had a sub-panel
in mind.

In the case of a sub-panel with a mis-wired egc as described
(egc to neutral bus as opposed to ground bus) there still
would not be lethal potential exposed to people, until and
unless at least two *defects* occured in addition to the egc
mis-wiring. They are what lead to deaths of people, not the
mis-wired egc. The thing could be mis-wired as described
forever, and would never cause a lethal potential.

In the sense that the mis-wired egc failed to prevent the
lethal potential, I suppose that's what you mean when you
say it will lead to deaths of people. I would agree with
that. Do I understand your meaning correctly?

Ed

>
>
> | Ed
> |
> | Of course these descriptions are all
> |> about the extreme possible events. But why add risk when you don't need
> |> to. Do the job correctly in the first place. If you have any doubt at
> |> all what is correct, hire a professional.
> |>
>

krw

2008-02-08, 1:25 pm

In article <WNRqj.10412$EK3.8973@trndny04>, ehsjr@bellatlantic.net
says...
> phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
>
> No it won't. The neutral bus and the ground bus are
> bonded in the panel.

Why do you think it is code that it *only* be bonded in the entrance
panel? Hunt: because it's not safe (I.e. people may die) if it's
bonded elsewhere.

--
Keith

ehsjr

2008-02-09, 3:25 am

krw wrote:
> In article <WNRqj.10412$EK3.8973@trndny04>, ehsjr@bellatlantic.net
> says...
>
>
>
> Why do you think it is code that it *only* be bonded in the entrance
> panel? Hunt: because it's not safe (I.e. people may die) if it's
> bonded elsewhere.
>

Phil indicated earlier (on 2/3) that he presumed the discussion
was about circuits originating from the main panel. The context,
and my response, had nothing to do with a sub-panel.

Ed

Long Ranger

2008-02-09, 3:25 am

"krw" <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
news:MPG.221612761b628fde989739@news.individual.net...
> In article <WNRqj.10412$EK3.8973@trndny04>, ehsjr@bellatlantic.net
> says...
>
> Why do you think it is code that it *only* be bonded in the entrance
> panel? Hunt: because it's not safe (I.e. people may die) if it's
> bonded elsewhere.
>
> --
> Keith

It is code mainly because if you bond the neutral downstream of the main
panel, and then lose your service neutral connection, your ground then
carries the neutral load, and it is not sized for it. Since there are no
current limiting devices in the neutral or ground path, it can get as hot as
it wants without any automatic devices sensing it. (Providing there is
sufficient imbalance.)

krw

2008-02-09, 8:25 pm

In article <1Uarj.584$Uq4.22@trndny02>, ehsjr@bellatlantic.net
says...
> krw wrote:
>
> Phil indicated earlier (on 2/3) that he presumed the discussion
> was about circuits originating from the main panel. The context,
> and my response, had nothing to do with a sub-panel.

Yes, I saw that long after I wrote the above (off-line reading will
do that).

--
Keith

krw

2008-02-09, 8:25 pm

In article <_7KdnS7zI5-R2DDanZ2dnUVZ_oKhnZ2d@comcast.com>,
lorpkins@earthlink says...
>
> "krw" <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
> news:MPG.221612761b628fde989739@news.individual.net...
>
> It is code mainly because if you bond the neutral downstream of the main
> panel, and then lose your service neutral connection, your ground then
> carries the neutral load, and it is not sized for it. Since there are no
> current limiting devices in the neutral or ground path, it can get as hot as
> it wants without any automatic devices sensing it. (Providing there is
> sufficient imbalance.)
>
Why do you think I wrote the above?

--
Keith

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-02-10, 3:25 am

On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 17:13:50 GMT ehsjr <ehsjr@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
| phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|> On Fri, 08 Feb 2008 05:30:30 GMT ehsjr <ehsjr@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
|> | phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|> |> On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:46:13 -0800 Long Ranger <lorpkins@earthlink .net> wrote:
|> |>
|> |> | You've Been Forewarned - If you proceed as you have decidedly describe
|> |> | above you will experience explosion through-out your electrical system -
|> |> | the 3rd wires cannot go on the neutral buss bar.
|> |>
|> |> Wiring ground wires tu neutral bus will not lead to explosions. Instead,
|> |> it will lead to deaths of people.
|> |
|> | No it won't. The neutral bus and the ground bus are
|> | bonded in the panel.
|>
|> That is only in a service entrance main panel where the connection to the
|> grounding electrodes come in as well. In a subpanel, everything is kept
|> separate.
|
| I thought you were talking about the main panel based
| on your post of 2/3:

The topic shifted from that in the course of followups. I was summarizing
the general issues of miswiring.

| Also, you didn't mention sub-panel in the post to which
| I responded, so it was not evident you had a sub-panel
| in mind.

The topic had shifted.

| In the case of a sub-panel with a mis-wired egc as described
| (egc to neutral bus as opposed to ground bus) there still
| would not be lethal potential exposed to people, until and
| unless at least two *defects* occured in addition to the egc
| mis-wiring. They are what lead to deaths of people, not the
| mis-wired egc. The thing could be mis-wired as described
| forever, and would never cause a lethal potential.

I agree 99%. Defects can happen, though.

| In the sense that the mis-wired egc failed to prevent the
| lethal potential, I suppose that's what you mean when you
| say it will lead to deaths of people. I would agree with
| that. Do I understand your meaning correctly?

My post was a general categorization of the issue, not that specific
events must happen.

"connect ground to gas pipe -> explosion" ... it can happen but is rare.
"connect ground to neutral -> electrocution" ... it can happen but is rare.

It was just more about categorizing the errors.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-02-10-0047@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-02-10, 3:25 am

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 22:15:51 -0800 Long Ranger <lorpkins@earthlink .net> wrote:
|
| "krw" <krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzz> wrote in message
| news:MPG.221612761b628fde989739@news.individual.net...
|> In article <WNRqj.10412$EK3.8973@trndny04>, ehsjr@bellatlantic.net
|> says...
|>> phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|>> > On Wed, 6 Feb 2008 22:46:13 -0800 Long Ranger <lorpkins@earthlink .net>
|>> > wrote:
|>> >
|>> > | You've Been Forewarned - If you proceed as you have decidedly
|>> > describe
|>> > | above you will experience explosion through-out your electrical
|>> > system -
|>> > | the 3rd wires cannot go on the neutral buss bar.
|>> >
|>> > Wiring ground wires tu neutral bus will not lead to explosions.
|>> > Instead,
|>> > it will lead to deaths of people.
|>>
|>> No it won't. The neutral bus and the ground bus are
|>> bonded in the panel.
|>
|> Why do you think it is code that it *only* be bonded in the entrance
|> panel? Hunt: because it's not safe (I.e. people may die) if it's
|> bonded elsewhere.
|>
|> --
|> Keith
|
| It is code mainly because if you bond the neutral downstream of the main
| panel, and then lose your service neutral connection, your ground then
| carries the neutral load, and it is not sized for it. Since there are no
| current limiting devices in the neutral or ground path, it can get as hot as
| it wants without any automatic devices sensing it. (Providing there is
| sufficient imbalance.)

How about a main GFI device? With hots and neutral, but not ground, running
through the CT, it can open at least the hots (or hots and neutral if it
complies with requirements to never open the neutral ahead of hots or close
the neutral after the hots) and stop the ground current that way.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-02-10-0054@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

ehsjr

2008-02-10, 5:25 pm

krw wrote:
> In article <1Uarj.584$Uq4.22@trndny02>, ehsjr@bellatlantic.net
> says...
>
>
>
> Yes, I saw that long after I wrote the above (off-line reading will
> do that).
>

Yep. And another thing does it too, to me at least. I've had
some occasions where I'm reading online and don't see a post
that has an earlier time stamp (than the time I'm looking at
the thread). Later on, it appears. I'm guessing that the server
updates periodically as opposed to interactively.

Ed

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-02-10, 5:25 pm

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:26:01 GMT ehsjr <ehsjr@bellatlantic.net> wrote:

| Yep. And another thing does it too, to me at least. I've had
| some occasions where I'm reading online and don't see a post
| that has an earlier time stamp (than the time I'm looking at
| the thread). Later on, it appears. I'm guessing that the server
| updates periodically as opposed to interactively.

The articles can be transmitted out of order. Or some can be lost.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-02-10-1605@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Long Ranger

2008-02-11, 3:25 am

> | It is code mainly because if you bond the neutral downstream of the main
> | panel, and then lose your service neutral connection, your ground then
> | carries the neutral load, and it is not sized for it. Since there are no
> | current limiting devices in the neutral or ground path, it can get as
> hot as
> | it wants without any automatic devices sensing it. (Providing there is
> | sufficient imbalance.)
>
> How about a main GFI device? With hots and neutral, but not ground,
> running
> through the CT, it can open at least the hots (or hots and neutral if it
> complies with requirements to never open the neutral ahead of hots or
> close
> the neutral after the hots) and stop the ground current that way.

I suppose so, but the topic was about neutral bonding, more or less, and you
still can't bond in the sub.

Michael A. Terrell

2008-02-11, 1:25 pm

ehsjr wrote:

>
> Yep. And another thing does it too, to me at least. I've had
> some occasions where I'm reading online and don't see a post
> that has an earlier time stamp (than the time I'm looking at
> the thread). Later on, it appears. I'm guessing that the server
> updates periodically as opposed to interactively.

Usenet messages are passed peer to peer. Different news servers have
different peering, so some messages take longer than others to arrive at
your news server.

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Ben Miller

2008-02-18, 1:25 pm

Long Ranger wrote:
>
> It is code mainly because if you bond the neutral downstream of the
> main panel, and then lose your service neutral connection, your
> ground then carries the neutral load, and it is not sized for it.
> Since there are no current limiting devices in the neutral or ground
> path, it can get as hot as it wants without any automatic devices
> sensing it. (Providing there is sufficient imbalance.)

Neutral load is generally small, and there could be multiple paths through
the grounding system, so it may carry it quite well. Actually, the greatest
hazard is electric shock from elevated touch potential on all exposed
"grounded" metal such as boxes, conduit, appliance housings, etc.
--
Benjamin D Miller, PE
www.bmillerengineering.com

Ben Miller

2008-02-18, 1:25 pm

Roy wrote:
>
> David Please Take Notice
>
> You've Been Forewarned - If you proceed as you have decidedly describe
> above you will experience explosion through-out your electrical
> system - the 3rd wires cannot go on the neutral buss bar.
>
> What you need is an Equipment Ground to Earth - Get Professional help
> if you are not familiar with what needs to be done.
>
> You should have a seperate Ground Buss Bar adverse to the Neutral Bar
> in the panel, which would be connected to an external grounding rod to
> earth and from hence you derive your Equipment/Earth Ground Conductor
> = 3rd Prong/Green Terminal Screw...
>
> Roy Q.T. ~ US/NCU ~ E.E. Technician
> [have tools, will travel]

Let's keep things in perspective here. There is no explosion hazard! If he
is talking about the service panel, then it really doesn't matter from a
safety standpoint, since the main bonding jumper connects the neutral and
ground bus bars. The only hazard is a possible electric shock if this is a
sub-panel and a fault occurs on the neutral.

--
Benjamin D Miller, PE
www.bmillerengineering.com

Stuart

2008-02-18, 1:25 pm

In article <13rji5qqv66e1f3@corp.supernews.com>,
Ben Miller <Ben@somewhere> wrote:
> There is no explosion hazard! If he is talking about the service panel,

In his original post the guy was going to connect his earth to the gas
pipe!

--
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

Ben Miller

2008-02-18, 5:25 pm

Stuart wrote:
> In article <13rji5qqv66e1f3@corp.supernews.com>,
> Ben Miller <Ben@somewhere> wrote:
>
> In his original post the guy was going to connect his earth to the gas
> pipe!

Yes, I saw that. However, in the post that Roy had responded to the op said
he had decided to ground it to the neutral bus. Their messages may have
gotten out of sync somehow. Perhaps Roy meant to respond to the earlier one
regarding the gas pipe, in which case I agree there would be a hazard of
explosion.

--
Benjamin D Miller, PE
www.bmillerengineering.com

Stuart

2008-02-19, 9:25 am

In article <13rjomo9evmrbf9@corp.supernews.com>,
Ben Miller <Ben@somewhere> wrote:
> Yes, I saw that. However, in the post that Roy had responded to the op
> said he had decided to ground it to the neutral bus. Their messages may
> have gotten out of sync somehow. Perhaps Roy meant to respond to the
> earlier one regarding the gas pipe, in which case I agree there would
> be a hazard of explosion.

Yes, at times, posts can get confusing :-)

--
Stuart Winsor

From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.

For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk

Roy

2008-02-19, 5:25 pm

From(Stuart)
In an article
Ben Miller wrote:
Yes, I saw that. However, in the post that Roy had responded to the op
said he had decided to ground it to the neutral bus. Their messages may
have gotten out of sync somehow. Perhaps Roy meant to respond to the
earlier one regarding the gas pipe, in which case I agree there would be
a hazard of explosion.

Yes, at times, posts can get confusing :-)
--
Stuart Winsor
From is valid but subject to change without notice if it gets spammed.
For Barn dances and folk evenings in the Coventry and Warwickshire area
See: http://www.barndance.org.uk
------------------------

My original response to this post was to "Keep it Minty" and replace the
circuit breaker to these outlets with a GFI..

But, Yeah., there would be a bad path between Neutral & Earth if this
system is bonded at the meter panel - it would be a grave mistake to
ground it from the gas pipe - That is an Insane Proposition.

Ben - Stuart - Thanks for hit this guy up again }

That other fellow with the Barn Task should just wait for the
electrician.

Roy Q.T. ~ US/NCU ~ E.E. Technician
[have tools, will travel]

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