Electrical Engineering - window frame zapping

Author

window frame zapping

Mark Kelep

2008-03-14, 9:25 am

Hi all,
I got a small shock (electrical and the other) while leaning against a steel
window frame while handling speaker wires in a house today.
The home is built with concrete walls and all windows are steel.
I measured around 100 VAC between either speaker wire wrt the window frame
with the amp on or off.
I was able to light up an LED too, though the current couldnt have been much
as I didnt use a limiting resistor and the LED didnt burn out.

What the hell is going on??

Hoping for some advice as to what to check.

Thanks,
Mark

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-14, 9:25 am

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:42:33 GMT Mark Kelep <mxarvkkezlly2@biagpboncd.com> wrote:

| I got a small shock (electrical and the other) while leaning against a steel
| window frame while handling speaker wires in a house today.
| The home is built with concrete walls and all windows are steel.
| I measured around 100 VAC between either speaker wire wrt the window frame
| with the amp on or off.

You seem to be posting from Australia, so I will assume your have 240 volts
line-to-neutral/ground power system.

Does the power plug on the amplifier have 2 prongs (ungrounded) or 3 prongs
(grounded)? You can't reverse an AU plug, so check to see if the outlet or
power cord into the amplifier is miswired.

| I was able to light up an LED too, though the current couldnt have been much
| as I didnt use a limiting resistor and the LED didnt burn out.
|
| What the hell is going on??

If a 3 prong (grounded) plug is involved, and the ground wire is attached
to the amplifier frame, as it should be, it may be the case that the ground
wire in the outlet or branch circuit is NOT CONNECTED to the real ground.
It would them be capacitively coupled to both the hot (240V) and neutral
wires, giving you something about half way in between with very little
current available.

| Hoping for some advice as to what to check.

Check to see what voltage you get between the GROUND slot of the outlet and
the window frame. If nothing there, check the frame of the amplifier when
it is plugged in, and also when it is unplugged. There is also the chance
of another device in the A/V system causing this if more than one is present
and they are interconnected. Pull all connections and test each one by one
if that is the case.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-14-0827@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Mark Kelep

2008-03-14, 1:25 pm

<phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:frdv4321c9d@news4.newsguy.com...
> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 10:42:33 GMT Mark Kelep <mxarvkkezlly2@biagpboncd.com>
> wrote:
>
> | I got a small shock (electrical and the other) while leaning against a
> steel
> | window frame while handling speaker wires in a house today.
> | The home is built with concrete walls and all windows are steel.
> | I measured around 100 VAC between either speaker wire wrt the window
> frame
> | with the amp on or off.
>
> You seem to be posting from Australia, so I will assume your have 240
> volts
> line-to-neutral/ground power system.

***Correct

>
> Does the power plug on the amplifier have 2 prongs (ungrounded) or 3
> prongs
> (grounded)? You can't reverse an AU plug, so check to see if the outlet
> or
> power cord into the amplifier is miswired.

***Two prongs

>
>
> | I was able to light up an LED too, though the current couldnt have been
> much
> | as I didnt use a limiting resistor and the LED didnt burn out.
> |
> | What the hell is going on??
>
> If a 3 prong (grounded) plug is involved, and the ground wire is attached
> to the amplifier frame, as it should be, it may be the case that the
> ground
> wire in the outlet or branch circuit is NOT CONNECTED to the real ground.
> It would them be capacitively coupled to both the hot (240V) and neutral
> wires, giving you something about half way in between with very little
> current available.
>
>
> | Hoping for some advice as to what to check.
>
> Check to see what voltage you get between the GROUND slot of the outlet
> and
> the window frame. If nothing there, check the frame of the amplifier when
> it is plugged in, and also when it is unplugged. There is also the chance
> of another device in the A/V system causing this if more than one is
> present
> and they are interconnected. Pull all connections and test each one by
> one
> if that is the case.

***I did some checking, and pulling out the turntable (the only three
pronged device) finally shut the LED down.
I then measured between 'house earth' and the window.
The same 100 volts was there and lit the LED as before.
I'm guessing your theory involving Capacitance is having a role to play
here.
Is this due to to bad earthing? and am I likely to be paying for energy i'm
not getting?
What would be the best way to fix the problem?

Cheers mate,
Mark

>
> --
> |---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
> | Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below
> |
> | first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-14-0827@ipal.net
> |
> |------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-14, 1:25 pm

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:07:57 GMT Mark Kelep <mxarvkkezlly2@biagpboncd.com> wrote:

| ***I did some checking, and pulling out the turntable (the only three
| pronged device) finally shut the LED down.
| I then measured between 'house earth' and the window.
| The same 100 volts was there and lit the LED as before.
| I'm guessing your theory involving Capacitance is having a role to play
| here.
| Is this due to to bad earthing? and am I likely to be paying for energy i'm
| not getting?
| What would be the best way to fix the problem?

Yes, the earthing is likely to be faulty. There exists a remote possibility
the window frame is energized some other way and the "house earth" is just
the return for that energy in the window frame.

It is not likely you are paying for energy you are not getting/using, since
the current is so small. But that does not rule out some other fault.

If the problem is what I believe to be most likely (a broken ground/earth
wire somewhere between the outlet and the panel where the ground/earth is
connected to the system neutral and the earth electrode(s)), it will not
cause loss of energy unless something else is at fault. Such faults that
could result in high leakage current or, worse, electrocution hazard to
people, should result in the circuit breaker tripping off because of high
current to the ground wire. With the broken ground/earth connection, that
won't happen and if such a risk exists, it will persist.

If the ground/earth wire were connected to neutral and ground correctly,
any energy it is charged with through capacitive coupling would be drained
fully to neutral and earth. It apparently is only "draining" through the
capacitive coupling (and so it is about half way in voltage).

To fix this, hire an electrician who has the appropriate license/permits in
your location. It MAY be as simple as a loose connection in the outlet. It
is more likely to be a loose connection in the electrical panel. Unless you
are an electrician, you don't want to be messing around in there.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-14-1237@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Rheilly Phoull

2008-03-14, 8:25 pm

<phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:fredrc1301@news1.newsguy.com...
> On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 15:07:57 GMT Mark Kelep <mxarvkkezlly2@biagpboncd.com>
> wrote:
>
> | ***I did some checking, and pulling out the turntable (the only three
> | pronged device) finally shut the LED down.
> | I then measured between 'house earth' and the window.
> | The same 100 volts was there and lit the LED as before.
> | I'm guessing your theory involving Capacitance is having a role to play
> | here.
> | Is this due to to bad earthing? and am I likely to be paying for energy
> i'm
> | not getting?
> | What would be the best way to fix the problem?
>
> Yes, the earthing is likely to be faulty. There exists a remote
> possibility
> the window frame is energized some other way and the "house earth" is just
> the return for that energy in the window frame.
>
> It is not likely you are paying for energy you are not getting/using,
> since
> the current is so small. But that does not rule out some other fault.
>
> If the problem is what I believe to be most likely (a broken ground/earth
> wire somewhere between the outlet and the panel where the ground/earth is
> connected to the system neutral and the earth electrode(s)), it will not
> cause loss of energy unless something else is at fault. Such faults that
> could result in high leakage current or, worse, electrocution hazard to
> people, should result in the circuit breaker tripping off because of high
> current to the ground wire.

G'Day, many homes in 'Oz' are not equipped with RCD breakers if they are of
the older vintage. Simply a main switch and fuses. Also such homes used the
metallic water supply piping for the earth electrode.If your home is such it
would be a good idea to have a look at that connection, being careful not to
touch the wire and the pipe if it is disconnected (to avoid shock). It
should be visible as a brass clamp with a small identifying tag. If not sure
consult a licensed tradesman!!

Cheers ........ Rheilly P

With the broken ground/earth connection, that
> won't happen and if such a risk exists, it will persist.
>
> If the ground/earth wire were connected to neutral and ground correctly,
> any energy it is charged with through capacitive coupling would be drained
> fully to neutral and earth. It apparently is only "draining" through the
> capacitive coupling (and so it is about half way in voltage).
>
> To fix this, hire an electrician who has the appropriate license/permits
> in
> your location. It MAY be as simple as a loose connection in the outlet.
> It
> is more likely to be a loose connection in the electrical panel. Unless
> you
> are an electrician, you don't want to be messing around in there.
>
> --
> |---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
> | Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below
> |
> | first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-14-1237@ipal.net
> |
> |------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

Mark Kelep

2008-03-15, 3:25 am

"Rheilly Phoull" <rheilly@bigpong.com> wrote in message
news:47db130b$0$19266$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> <phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
> news:fredrc1301@news1.newsguy.com...
>
> G'Day, many homes in 'Oz' are not equipped with RCD breakers if they are
> of the older vintage. Simply a main switch and fuses. Also such homes used
> the metallic water supply piping for the earth electrode.If your home is
> such it would be a good idea to have a look at that connection, being
> careful not to touch the wire and the pipe if it is disconnected (to avoid
> shock). It should be visible as a brass clamp with a small identifying
> tag. If not sure consult a licensed tradesman!!
>
> Cheers ........ Rheilly P
>
>
> With the broken ground/earth connection, that

**** Thanks guys, problem solved. There were a couple of loosish wires at
the power point. Nipped them up with an 'all steel' screw driver (haha
kidding of cause) anyway all is well now. Time to check all the other points
I reckon.
Yep, it's a very basic set-up here with no protection apart from fuses.

Just a quick question while i'm here.
Is it true that both the Active and Neutral wires come in off the street?
If thats the case, does that neutral simply terminate to ground at a sub
station way before the power station or does it go all
the way?
On the other hand, does only an active come into the house and returns to
ground at the house only.

Thanks again,
Mark

[color=darkred]
>
>

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-15, 3:25 am

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 05:33:23 GMT Mark Kelep <mxarvkkezlly2@biagpboncd.com> wrote:

| Just a quick question while i'm here.
| Is it true that both the Active and Neutral wires come in off the street?

Yes.

| If thats the case, does that neutral simply terminate to ground at a sub
| station way before the power station or does it go all
| the way?

It could be isolated at a transformer by being grounded/earthed on the
secondary side, and not connected across to the primary. However, at
least in the USA, it is typically connected between primary and secondary.
So the answer is, it very well could go all the way to the power station.
There would be many points along the way where it would be earthed.

| On the other hand, does only an active come into the house and returns to
| ground at the house only.

The power return is through the neutral, not earth. The neutral is earthed
for various reasons/benefits. But it is usually earthed at only one point
near where it enters the building. Duplicate earthing can cause problems
such as return current flowing through the earthing electrodes, corroding
them.

Some very high voltage transmission power lines are designed to use earth
itself as a return path. But this is rare.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-15-0115@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

dirskyster@gmail.com

2008-03-15, 9:25 am

On 3=D4=C214=C8=D5, =CF=C2=CE=E76=CA=B142=B7=D6, "Mark Kelep" <mxarvkkezl...=
@biagpboncd.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
> I got a small shock (electrical and the other) while leaning against a ste=
el
> window frame while handling speaker wires in a house today.
> The home is built with concrete walls and all windows are steel.
> I measured around 100 VAC between either speaker wire wrt the window frame=

> with the amp on or off.
> I was able to light up an LED too, though the current couldnt have been mu=
ch
> as I didnt use a limiting resistor and the LED didnt burn out.
>
> What the hell is going on??
>
> Hoping for some advice as to what to check.
>
> Thanks,
> Mark

Do you want access to China's massive pool of electronic
manufacturers... but lack the time to contact suppliers, negotiate
contracts, arrange shipping or monitor product quality? Don't worry -
Let seriouswholesale deal with all that for you.

*Check out the huge range of Gadgets, MP3 / MP4 Players, Car DVD /
Audio, and Computer Accessories now by visiting the online wholesale
catalog at seriouswholesale. com You'll have peace of mind thanks to
the seriouswholesale Quality Control, 12-month Warranty on all
products, and easy secure payment by credit card through Paypal.

Selling on eBay or your own online store? Send products direct from
our warehouse to your customers using our unique drop-shipping
service. You can profit by selling hundreds of different products,
without holding any of your own inventory! Any questions you have will
be answered by the seriouswholesale English-speaking customer support
team... Their aim is to make your China electronics importing business
easier to run than ever before.

Welcome to http://www.seriouswholesale.com.

seriouswholesale - Buy from the source, profit without the hassle.

- 12 Months Warranty - No minimum order restrictions - Drop-shipping
with no additional fee - Pay by safely by PayPal seriouswholesale
Wholesale Co., Ltd.: Chinas original and best online electronics
wholesaler & drop-shipper: seriouswholesale. com

John G

2008-03-15, 8:25 pm

<phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:frfqg001jpg@news3.newsguy.com...
> On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 05:33:23 GMT Mark Kelep <mxarvkkezlly2@biagpboncd.com>
> wrote:
>
> | Just a quick question while i'm here.
> | Is it true that both the Active and Neutral wires come in off the
> street?
>
> Yes.
>
>
> | If thats the case, does that neutral simply terminate to ground at a sub
> | station way before the power station or does it go all
> | the way?
>
> It could be isolated at a transformer by being grounded/earthed on the
> secondary side, and not connected across to the primary. However, at
> least in the USA, it is typically connected between primary and secondary.
> So the answer is, it very well could go all the way to the power station.
> There would be many points along the way where it would be earthed.
>
>
> | On the other hand, does only an active come into the house and returns
> to
> | ground at the house only.
>
> The power return is through the neutral, not earth. The neutral is
> earthed
> for various reasons/benefits. But it is usually earthed at only one point
> near where it enters the building. Duplicate earthing can cause problems
> such as return current flowing through the earthing electrodes, corroding
> them.
>
> Some very high voltage transmission power lines are designed to use earth
> itself as a return path. But this is rare.
>
Generally in Australia the system distribution, both the very hi voltage
grid and the local street high voltage is 3 phase DELTA and hence no
neutral.
There is then a large 40kva or more transformer in the street, sometimes on
a pole (outside my house) and sometimes in a box on a pad or hidden in
buildings. These each serve more houses than the typical US pole pig.
The neutral originates in the 3 phase WYE secondary output and is grounded
there.
The neutral is again connected to the ground at the building entry box and
hopefully nowhere else.
There are some hi voltage Single Wire Earth Return (SWER) systems in the
bush and of course to work they have the neutral and the ground connected on
both sides of the transformer at the consumer.

Gloat (- for USA home workshop people, 3 phase 230/400 volt power is
available anywhere (except at SWER instalations) just for the cost of
installation or sometimes for free. Most ducted Air cons are 3 phase so lots
of houses already have it installed.

John G.

Don Kelly

2008-03-16, 3:25 am

--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer
----------------------------
<phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:frfqg001jpg@news3.newsguy.com...
> On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 05:33:23 GMT Mark Kelep <mxarvkkezlly2@biagpboncd.com>
> wrote:
>
> | Just a quick question while i'm here.
> | Is it true that both the Active and Neutral wires come in off the
> street?
>
> Yes.
>
>
> | If thats the case, does that neutral simply terminate to ground at a sub
> | station way before the power station or does it go all
> | the way?
>
> It could be isolated at a transformer by being grounded/earthed on the
> secondary side, and not connected across to the primary. However, at
> least in the USA, it is typically connected between primary and secondary.
> So the answer is, it very well could go all the way to the power station.
> There would be many points along the way where it would be earthed.
>
>
> | On the other hand, does only an active come into the house and returns
> to
> | ground at the house only.
>
> The power return is through the neutral, not earth. The neutral is
> earthed
> for various reasons/benefits. But it is usually earthed at only one point
> near where it enters the building. Duplicate earthing can cause problems
> such as return current flowing through the earthing electrodes, corroding
> them.
>
> Some very high voltage transmission power lines are designed to use earth
> itself as a return path. But this is rare.
-------------
Very high voltage lines do carry a neutral -usually in the form of overhead
ground wires and multiple grounds as well as a counterpoise where needed- as
they are usually connected Y. None that I know of use earth as the return
path as the attempt is to keep the load well balanced at those levels. Do
you have an example?

There are some low voltage -say 7200V to earth rural lines taken off one
phase of a Y system that have used earth as the return for single phase
service- these are increasingly rare as the earth path is paralleled by a
neutral which is grounded at every transformer along the line rather than
use a ground path only. Corrosion doesn't appear to be a problem (as it
would be with DC).
--

Don Kelly dhky@shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer

>
> --
> |---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
> | Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below
> |
> | first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-15-0115@ipal.net
> |
> |------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-16, 3:25 am

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:46:49 +1100 John G <green@ozemail.com.au> wrote:

| Generally in Australia the system distribution, both the very hi voltage
| grid and the local street high voltage is 3 phase DELTA and hence no
| neutral.

So the single phase pole pigs would have two insulation bushings for the
primary connections?

| There is then a large 40kva or more transformer in the street, sometimes on
| a pole (outside my house) and sometimes in a box on a pad or hidden in
| buildings. These each serve more houses than the typical US pole pig.

How many houses can be served by one 40 kVA transformer down under?

| Gloat (- for USA home workshop people, 3 phase 230/400 volt power is
| available anywhere (except at SWER instalations) just for the cost of
| installation or sometimes for free. Most ducted Air cons are 3 phase so lots
| of houses already have it installed.

Three phase is fine to have around if you don't have the penalty of having
and odd voltage. I'm sure nothing for consumers is made designed to be
run from 460 volts, so no one would have a reason to get 230/460 volt split
phase power. The voltages would strictly be 230 and 400 (240 and 415 in
legacy installations). In the USA and Canada, many consumer appliances use
240 volts single phase. But you don't get that 240 volts where three phase
power is provided in the form of the 120/208 volt system.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-15-2157@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

John G

2008-03-16, 3:25 am

<phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
news:fri2oj21vjo@news3.newsguy.com...
> On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:46:49 +1100 John G <green@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>
> | Generally in Australia the system distribution, both the very hi voltage
> | grid and the local street high voltage is 3 phase DELTA and hence no
> | neutral.
>
> So the single phase pole pigs would have two insulation bushings for the
> primary connections?

There are NO single phase pole pigs except the remote SWER installations.
All street transformers are 3phase 3 wire in 4 wire out. and as far as I can
find out higher voltage distribution transformers are alwys 3 wire in and 3
wire out with only relatively light lightining protection wires at the top
of some tower runs.

> | There is then a large 40kva or more transformer in the street, sometimes
> on
> | a pole (outside my house) and sometimes in a box on a pad or hidden in
> | buildings. These each serve more houses than the typical US pole pig.
>

> How many houses can be served by one 40 kVA transformer down under?

It is hard to tell because the 4 wire 230/400 wireing is often looped with
more than one transformer connected to a bigger group with hand operated
disonnects for fault isolation.

>
> | Gloat (- for USA home workshop people, 3 phase 230/400 volt power is
> | available anywhere (except at SWER instalations) just for the cost of
> | installation or sometimes for free. Most ducted Air cons are 3 phase so
> lots
> | of houses already have it installed.
>
> Three phase is fine to have around if you don't have the penalty of having
> and odd voltage. I'm sure nothing for consumers is made designed to be
> run from 460 volts, so no one would have a reason to get 230/460 volt
> split
> phase power. The voltages would strictly be 230 and 400 (240 and 415 in
> legacy installations). In the USA and Canada, many consumer appliances
> use
> 240 volts single phase. But you don't get that 240 volts where three
> phase
> power is provided in the form of the 120/208 volt system.
>
I think I undestand the various voltage problems with three phase and split
120/240/208/
Anything you are likely to buy here is either 1 phase 230v or 3 phase
230/400.
There are some legacy kitchen ovens that were 2 phase.
Of course it is only a short while since we started to move to 230 from 240
and some years ago Western Australia was 250.

My comments about how easy it is to get 3phase were aimed, in jest, at home
machinists in the US who buy commercial equipment then have to resort to
some odd convertors to get them to run.

John G.

Dave Martindale

2008-03-16, 3:25 am

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net writes:

>Some very high voltage transmission power lines are designed to use earth
>itself as a return path. But this is rare.

Vancouver Island is fed power from the main BC grid via a HVDC submarine
cable. I think the voltage is around +- 200 kV. The rectifier station
is a few miles from the coastline, and the HVDC is carried on towers to
the point where the submarine cable comes ashore. This point is right
next to the road access to the main ferry terminal, so it's quite
visible. The overhead lines look a lot like standard HVAC, but there
are only two conductors, not three.

In addition, there's another single conductor that goes from the
rectifier station to the shoreline of a nearby bay, where it connects to
an array of ground rods. There's a fence around the ground rod array
with warnings about dangerous voltages - not what you'd expect from
obviously "grounded" electrodes.

From various stuff I've read, I think this is what's going on:
Normally, all the current is carried by the submarine cable conductors,
and the ground rods do nothing. But if one of the conductors ever
becomes open, the ground rods at this end (along with another array
somewhere on Vancouver Island) provide a return path via sea water that
would allow the remaining good conductor to deliver half the normal
power. This much DC current would likely corrode the ground rods pretty
fast, but is better than losing the entire cable capacity.

These features can be seen (somewhat fuzzily) in Google Earth. The
rectifier building is part of the substation at (49.090456
-123.041981). (This is latitude/longitude in degrees) The terminal
where the HVDC lines connect to the submarine cable is at (49.028194
-123.100258). And I believe the ground array is what you see at
(49.057122 -123.029581).

(It's actually a bit more complicated than I described, because there
are multiple submarine cables. There are older cables, lower in
capacity, fed from a building in Tsawwassen, between 4 Ave and 5 Ave.
The installations described above are for a more recent higher-capacity
cable. And BC Hydro is in the process of adding yet another cable, but
it's reusing the old Tsawwassen connection route).

Dave

dirskyster@gmail.com

2008-03-16, 1:25 pm

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-16, 1:25 pm

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:33:06 +1100 John G <green@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
|
| <phil-news-nospam@ipal.net> wrote in message
| news:fri2oj21vjo@news3.newsguy.com...
|> On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:46:49 +1100 John G <green@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
|>
|> | Generally in Australia the system distribution, both the very hi voltage
|> | grid and the local street high voltage is 3 phase DELTA and hence no
|> | neutral.
|>
|> So the single phase pole pigs would have two insulation bushings for the
|> primary connections?
|
| There are NO single phase pole pigs except the remote SWER installations.
| All street transformers are 3phase 3 wire in 4 wire out. and as far as I can
| find out higher voltage distribution transformers are alwys 3 wire in and 3
| wire out with only relatively light lightining protection wires at the top
| of some tower runs.

Well, that certainly makes it much easier to get three phase service, even
if most homes are only getting one or two phases from that transformer.

But if there was a single phase one, it would have to be the two bushing
type. Suppose you have a neighborhood area, but off to one side of it at
some distance (say 1km) not suitable to run 230 volts directly, is a home
isolated from the others. The closest place to feed it is from the same
distribution going around these neighborhood streets, because that is also
the way the road goes to that house. That distribution is delta, so there
is no neutral handy. So you'd have to run at least two of the distribution
wires out that 1 km road, and put a transformer out there. Would the do
this with three wires and put a three phase transformer, anyway?

|> | There is then a large 40kva or more transformer in the street, sometimes
|> on
|> | a pole (outside my house) and sometimes in a box on a pad or hidden in
|> | buildings. These each serve more houses than the typical US pole pig.
|>
|
|> How many houses can be served by one 40 kVA transformer down under?
|
| It is hard to tell because the 4 wire 230/400 wireing is often looped with
| more than one transformer connected to a bigger group with hand operated
| disonnects for fault isolation.

So it forms a "networked service".

|> | Gloat (- for USA home workshop people, 3 phase 230/400 volt power is
|> | available anywhere (except at SWER instalations) just for the cost of
|> | installation or sometimes for free. Most ducted Air cons are 3 phase so
|> lots
|> | of houses already have it installed.
|>
|> Three phase is fine to have around if you don't have the penalty of having
|> and odd voltage. I'm sure nothing for consumers is made designed to be
|> run from 460 volts, so no one would have a reason to get 230/460 volt
|> split
|> phase power. The voltages would strictly be 230 and 400 (240 and 415 in
|> legacy installations). In the USA and Canada, many consumer appliances
|> use
|> 240 volts single phase. But you don't get that 240 volts where three
|> phase
|> power is provided in the form of the 120/208 volt system.
|>
| I think I undestand the various voltage problems with three phase and split
| 120/240/208/
| Anything you are likely to buy here is either 1 phase 230v or 3 phase
| 230/400.

What if you have a very high power device that can only be run single phase?
Would that not be wired for 400 volts?

| There are some legacy kitchen ovens that were 2 phase.
| Of course it is only a short while since we started to move to 230 from 240
| and some years ago Western Australia was 250.
|
| My comments about how easy it is to get 3phase were aimed, in jest, at home
| machinists in the US who buy commercial equipment then have to resort to
| some odd convertors to get them to run.

And that is a well aimed jest. It is in fact a real issue. My grandfather
did get 3 phase power for his wood shop, which was in a detached building
on the side of the house distant from where the power came in. This was
done in 1961. My guess is he had assumed the three phase power would be
in the form of "center tapped delta" without him necessarily understanding
the details (he was not an engineer, he was a school teacher of subjects
wood shop and business math). But instead of getting center tapped delta
he apparently got "208Y/120" and wired 3 phases underground to the shop and
just 2 phases into the house. They had the "slow heating" problems with
that lower line-to-line voltage on everything, and it was most problematic
for my grandmother who was always doing cooking for many things. The house
was one of those early "all electric" houses which had no gas service at
all. My grandfather was trying to get the electric issues corrected for
the next 11 years until he passed away. Perhaps the new owners afterwards
would have not needed three phase and single asked for the service to be
reverted to single phase.

I posted a while back a description of the kind of electrical system I would
have used if I could, back in time, have determined what it would be before
all the economics locked us into what we have now. It would have been a
system somewhere beteween what .US and .AU have now. But I would have also
avoided using directly connected line-to-neutral light bulb connections.
The service would have been either 144/288 or 288Y/166 with all utilization
wired line to line. Incandescent lights would have been wired through a
step down transformer to operate at 24 or 12 volts.

OTOH, if the whole world had simply done 400Y/230, fewer issues would exist
today. An electric stove could be wired to 230 volts at just 40 to 60 amps
while if only single ended 120 volts were all that people got in .US then
it would have needed 80 to 120 amps. So we needed that extra split phase
to handle the extra voltage for a few big appliances. The problem comes from
the need to have TWO single phase voltages, which cannot be reproduced using
simple three phase wye/star systems. Eliminating that need solves it.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-16-1145@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-16, 1:25 pm

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:00:04 +0000 (UTC) Dave Martindale <davem@cs.ubc.ca> wrote:

| From various stuff I've read, I think this is what's going on:
| Normally, all the current is carried by the submarine cable conductors,
| and the ground rods do nothing. But if one of the conductors ever
| becomes open, the ground rods at this end (along with another array
| somewhere on Vancouver Island) provide a return path via sea water that
| would allow the remaining good conductor to deliver half the normal
| power. This much DC current would likely corrode the ground rods pretty
| fast, but is better than losing the entire cable capacity.

And sound a bunch of alarms, too :-)

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-16-1217@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

2008-03-17, 1:25 pm

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:00:04 +0000 (UTC), davem@cs.ubc.ca (Dave
Martindale) wrote:

>Vancouver Island is fed power from the main BC grid via a HVDC submarine
>cable.

I think the Bonneville to LA DC intertie ("Celilo link") is Earth
return.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie

I am not sure but The return on DC links is Earth in most cases I have
seen.

It makes sense. Cost and operation wise.

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

2008-03-17, 1:25 pm

On 16 Mar 2008 17:18:58 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:

>On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:00:04 +0000 (UTC) Dave Martindale <davem@cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
>
>| From various stuff I've read, I think this is what's going on:
>| Normally, all the current is carried by the submarine cable conductors,
>| and the ground rods do nothing. But if one of the conductors ever
>| becomes open, the ground rods at this end (along with another array
>| somewhere on Vancouver Island) provide a return path via sea water that
>| would allow the remaining good conductor to deliver half the normal
>| power. This much DC current would likely corrode the ground rods pretty
>| fast, but is better than losing the entire cable capacity.
>
>And sound a bunch of alarms, too :-)

DC links typically get converted back to AC for the distribution
segments.

So the converter station and the source make for only ONE path
for the link.

No "ground rods" are used for such huge power passes. It is a far
different system.

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-17, 1:25 pm

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:57:23 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
| On 16 Mar 2008 17:18:58 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|
|>On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:00:04 +0000 (UTC) Dave Martindale <davem@cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
|>
|>| From various stuff I've read, I think this is what's going on:
|>| Normally, all the current is carried by the submarine cable conductors,
|>| and the ground rods do nothing. But if one of the conductors ever
|>| becomes open, the ground rods at this end (along with another array
|>| somewhere on Vancouver Island) provide a return path via sea water that
|>| would allow the remaining good conductor to deliver half the normal
|>| power. This much DC current would likely corrode the ground rods pretty
|>| fast, but is better than losing the entire cable capacity.
|>
|>And sound a bunch of alarms, too :-)
|
|
| DC links typically get converted back to AC for the distribution
| segments.
|
| So the converter station and the source make for only ONE path
| for the link.
|
| No "ground rods" are used for such huge power passes. It is a far
| different system.

Something has to be there in the ground. What do YOU think it is? Some
metal that cannot be corroded? Some conductive ceramic?

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-17-1308@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-17, 1:25 pm

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:53:37 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
| On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:00:04 +0000 (UTC), davem@cs.ubc.ca (Dave
| Martindale) wrote:
|
|>Vancouver Island is fed power from the main BC grid via a HVDC submarine
|>cable.
|
|
| I think the Bonneville to LA DC intertie ("Celilo link") is Earth
| return.
|
| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie
|
| I am not sure but The return on DC links is Earth in most cases I have
| seen.
|
| It makes sense. Cost and operation wise.

It can also introduce the possibility of getting free electricity from the
ground for people in or near the path.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-17-1309@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

2008-03-17, 5:25 pm

On 17 Mar 2008 18:09:16 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:57:23 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
>| On 16 Mar 2008 17:18:58 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
>|
>|>On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:00:04 +0000 (UTC) Dave Martindale <davem@cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
>|>
>|>| From various stuff I've read, I think this is what's going on:
>|>| Normally, all the current is carried by the submarine cable conductors,
>|>| and the ground rods do nothing. But if one of the conductors ever
>|>| becomes open, the ground rods at this end (along with another array
>|>| somewhere on Vancouver Island) provide a return path via sea water that
>|>| would allow the remaining good conductor to deliver half the normal
>|>| power. This much DC current would likely corrode the ground rods pretty
>|>| fast, but is better than losing the entire cable capacity.
>|>
>|>And sound a bunch of alarms, too :-)
>|
>|
>| DC links typically get converted back to AC for the distribution
>| segments.
>|
>| So the converter station and the source make for only ONE path
>| for the link.
>|
>| No "ground rods" are used for such huge power passes. It is a far
>| different system.
>
>Something has to be there in the ground. What do YOU think it is? Some
>metal that cannot be corroded? Some conductive ceramic?

For Megawatts? It ain't ground rods.

It is likely a huge slab at each end that is some power station
enhanced version of an ufer system sitting on a wet link to bedrock.

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

2008-03-17, 5:25 pm

On 17 Mar 2008 18:10:37 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:53:37 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
>| On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:00:04 +0000 (UTC), davem@cs.ubc.ca (Dave
>| Martindale) wrote:
>|
>|>Vancouver Island is fed power from the main BC grid via a HVDC submarine
>|>cable.
>|
>|
>| I think the Bonneville to LA DC intertie ("Celilo link") is Earth
>| return.
>|
>| http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_DC_Intertie
>|
>| I am not sure but The return on DC links is Earth in most cases I have
>| seen.
>|
>| It makes sense. Cost and operation wise.
>
>It can also introduce the possibility of getting free electricity from the
>ground for people in or near the path.

I can safely venture a guess that there are ZERO folks tapping current
off a DC feed ANYWHERE in ANY system.

And NO, it is NOT easy to do.

If it were AC, MAYBE one could glean a few Watts out of it, but would
likely also get caught due to proximity to the distribution system.

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-17, 5:25 pm

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:55:48 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
| On 17 Mar 2008 18:09:16 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|
|>On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:57:23 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
|>| On 16 Mar 2008 17:18:58 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|>|
|>|>On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 07:00:04 +0000 (UTC) Dave Martindale <davem@cs.ubc.ca> wrote:
|>|>
|>|>| From various stuff I've read, I think this is what's going on:
|>|>| Normally, all the current is carried by the submarine cable conductors,
|>|>| and the ground rods do nothing. But if one of the conductors ever
|>|>| becomes open, the ground rods at this end (along with another array
|>|>| somewhere on Vancouver Island) provide a return path via sea water that
|>|>| would allow the remaining good conductor to deliver half the normal
|>|>| power. This much DC current would likely corrode the ground rods pretty
|>|>| fast, but is better than losing the entire cable capacity.
|>|>
|>|>And sound a bunch of alarms, too :-)
|>|
|>|
|>| DC links typically get converted back to AC for the distribution
|>| segments.
|>|
|>| So the converter station and the source make for only ONE path
|>| for the link.
|>|
|>| No "ground rods" are used for such huge power passes. It is a far
|>| different system.
|>
|>Something has to be there in the ground. What do YOU think it is? Some
|>metal that cannot be corroded? Some conductive ceramic?
|
|
| For Megawatts? It ain't ground rods.

For megawatts it isn't SMALL ... but it has to be SOMETHING stuck into the
ground. Are you saying "ain't ground rods" because the SHAPE doesn't look
like a rod (or a huge array of big ones)?

| It is likely a huge slab at each end that is some power station
| enhanced version of an ufer system sitting on a wet link to bedrock.

OK, I'll call it an "earthing electrode". There, it isn't a "rod".

Now back to the original question ... will it corrode?

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-17-1520@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-17, 5:25 pm

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:58:19 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:

| I can safely venture a guess that there are ZERO folks tapping current
| off a DC feed ANYWHERE in ANY system.
|
| And NO, it is NOT easy to do.

Maybe. Maybe not.

| If it were AC, MAYBE one could glean a few Watts out of it, but would
| likely also get caught due to proximity to the distribution system.

Get caught how? It's PRIVATE PROPERTY. There already is a natural source
of electricity to be acquired from earth. There is no reason anyone should
be prohibited from gathering it. It may not be huge or consistent. And
it may well have complications at times (like when storms pass over). But
it is doable (I know someone who harvested enough to light some bulbs until
a storm melted his conductors and he gave up).

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-17-1523@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

2008-03-17, 5:25 pm

On 17 Mar 2008 20:27:04 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:

>On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:58:19 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
>
>| I can safely venture a guess that there are ZERO folks tapping current
>| off a DC feed ANYWHERE in ANY system.
>|
>| And NO, it is NOT easy to do.
>
>Maybe. Maybe not.
>
>
>| If it were AC, MAYBE one could glean a few Watts out of it, but would
>| likely also get caught due to proximity to the distribution system.
>
>Get caught how? It's PRIVATE PROPERTY.

WRONG. Any power line passes that cross private property get rights to do
so, and it is usually before the property gets bought by anyone.

Not only that, but they have the right to monitor ALL of their towers,
and ALL of the space under where their lines pass.

> There already is a natural source
>of electricity to be acquired from earth.

Huh? What? electrostatic? No work can be done there.

> There is no reason anyone should
>be prohibited from gathering it.

Gathering?

> It may not be huge or consistent.

It may be NIL 99.9999% of the time too.

> And
>it may well have complications at times (like when storms pass over). But
>it is doable (I know someone who harvested enough to light some bulbs until
>a storm melted his conductors and he gave up).

Like I said, one MAY be able to gain an "extraction" from an AC
distribution line, but you won't be tapping off a DC link any time soon.

The day you decide to do so, I want to watch... from a distance... with
a video camera rolling.

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-17, 9:25 pm

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 14:03:58 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
| On 17 Mar 2008 20:27:04 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|
|>On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 12:58:19 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
|>
|>| I can safely venture a guess that there are ZERO folks tapping current
|>| off a DC feed ANYWHERE in ANY system.
|>|
|>| And NO, it is NOT easy to do.
|>
|>Maybe. Maybe not.
|>
|>
|>| If it were AC, MAYBE one could glean a few Watts out of it, but would
|>| likely also get caught due to proximity to the distribution system.
|>
|>Get caught how? It's PRIVATE PROPERTY.
|
| WRONG. Any power line passes that cross private property get rights to do
| so, and it is usually before the property gets bought by anyone.
|
| Not only that, but they have the right to monitor ALL of their towers,
| and ALL of the space under where their lines pass.

However, they do NOT get a right to deprive the owner from any NATURAL
rights. An overhead AC power line does not deprive the owner from the
right to get ground power. But an overhead DCGR power line would do so
*IF* the power company tries to enforce against the owner extracting
ground currents that normally exist ANYWHERE.

I would presume this has never been tested in a court of law. If you
know of a case where this has been tested which involves DC with ground
return (not AC) and the owner extracting GROUND currents (not from the
lines or the magnetic fields), then let me know.

|> There already is a natural source
|>of electricity to be acquired from earth.
|
| Huh? What? electrostatic? No work can be done there.

I did not say electrostatic. Why are you trying to put words in my mouth?
Is making up stuff people don't say your typical practice?

|> There is no reason anyone should
|>be prohibited from gathering it.
|
| Gathering?

Collecting, harvesting, whatever.

|> It may not be huge or consistent.
|
| It may be NIL 99.9999% of the time too.

I'll disregard this comment because it seems you don't even know what I was
talking about.

|> And
|>it may well have complications at times (like when storms pass over). But
|>it is doable (I know someone who harvested enough to light some bulbs until
|>a storm melted his conductors and he gave up).
|
| Like I said, one MAY be able to gain an "extraction" from an AC
| distribution line, but you won't be tapping off a DC link any time soon.

Then if you were the CEO of the electric transmission company running a DC
line involving a ground return, and I, a landower near the transmission
line, were extracting currents in the ground by means of deep electrodes
at two far ends of my land, you would not mind?

| The day you decide to do so, I want to watch... from a distance... with
| a video camera rolling.

You'll be bored.

How much power do you really think can come from the ground even with a
DCGR line running nearby?

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-17-2115@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

2008-03-18, 3:25 am

On 18 Mar 2008 02:24:02 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:

>I would presume this has never been tested in a court of law. If you
>know of a case

I doubt that you could garner more than a few Watts. Their leaky
insulators lose more than that. I don't think they are worried about it.

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-19, 3:25 am

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 01:11:03 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
| On 18 Mar 2008 02:24:02 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|
|>I would presume this has never been tested in a court of law. If you
|>know of a case
|
|
| I doubt that you could garner more than a few Watts. Their leaky
| insulators lose more than that. I don't think they are worried about it.

I really don't know how much of the ground current would be added to from
the power line. But I do know that at times the natural ground current
that can be had from a lot the size of a football field, as a thunderstorm
passes over, is way more than a few watts. On a calm day there is not much.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-19-0023@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt

2008-03-19, 1:25 pm

On 19 Mar 2008 05:26:27 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 01:11:03 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
>| On 18 Mar 2008 02:24:02 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
>|
>|>I would presume this has never been tested in a court of law. If you
>|>know of a case
>|
>|
>| I doubt that you could garner more than a few Watts. Their leaky
>| insulators lose more than that. I don't think they are worried about it.
>
>I really don't know how much of the ground current would be added to from
>the power line. But I do know that at times the natural ground current
>that can be had from a lot the size of a football field, as a thunderstorm
>passes over, is way more than a few watts. On a calm day there is not much.

If it was feasible, it would already be an "alternative power source".

Since I have yet to see a single installation of such a "power" device,
I doubt that the numbers you relate are as valid as some of the other
things you do know about.

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2008-03-20, 8:26 pm

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 08:50:15 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
| On 19 Mar 2008 05:26:27 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|
|>On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 01:11:03 -0700 StickThatInYourPipeAndSmokeIt <Zarathustra@thusspoke.org> wrote:
|>| On 18 Mar 2008 02:24:02 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|>|
|>|>I would presume this has never been tested in a court of law. If you
|>|>know of a case
|>|
|>|
|>| I doubt that you could garner more than a few Watts. Their leaky
|>| insulators lose more than that. I don't think they are worried about it.
|>
|>I really don't know how much of the ground current would be added to from
|>the power line. But I do know that at times the natural ground current
|>that can be had from a lot the size of a football field, as a thunderstorm
|>passes over, is way more than a few watts. On a calm day there is not much.
|
|
| If it was feasible, it would already be an "alternative power source".

It has limited feasibility. It requires good soil, a large land area,
preferrably flat. The amount of power you can get varies greatly from
enough to light a couple bulbs sometimes to enough to melt a 250 kcmil
wire if left in a shorted state (when a strong storm line passes by).
It would be less feasible than wind power in most places. It would
require the ability to convert a very wide voltage range and a lot of
storage. It's by no means something that will catch on. But it is
something a few people could do.

| Since I have yet to see a single installation of such a "power" device,
| I doubt that the numbers you relate are as valid as some of the other
| things you do know about.

I've seen one such installation. It was experimental.

--
|---------------------------------------/----------------------------------|
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (ka9wgn.ham.org) / Do not send to the address below |
| first name lower case at ipal.net / spamtrap-2008-03-20-2006@ipal.net |
|------------------------------------/-------------------------------------|

LinkBot