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Home > Archive > Electrical code Compliance > June 2005 > wire protection in electrical closet
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wire protection in electrical closet
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| phil-news-nospam@ipal.net 2005-06-17, 11:29 pm |
| The NEC requires protection of wiring from damage in locations where
it is at risk of being damaged. But just what constitutes such a
risk?
If I put a breaker panel in a closet dedicated to electrical wiring,
with a surface mount breaker panel on a large flat wooden board on
one wall, can I run NM cable emerging from that panel along the
surface of that board?
--
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| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
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| |
|
| > If I put a breaker panel in a closet dedicated to electrical wiring,
quote:
> with a surface mount breaker panel on a large flat wooden board on
> one wall, can I run NM cable emerging from that panel along the
> surface of that board?
The answer to your question is that there is no answer, except from the AHJ.
(there will be a lot of opinions, tho.)
| |
| The Real Tom 2005-06-17, 11:29 pm |
| On 23 Mar 2005 18:11:07 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
quote:
>The NEC requires protection of wiring from damage in locations where
>it is at risk of being damaged. But just what constitutes such a
>risk?
>
>If I put a breaker panel in a closet dedicated to electrical wiring,
Think the NEC states not to put any disconnects in a closet. Don't
know the actual code offhand, but i'm wondering if I understand the
question too. If I did, I'll get the code reference I'm thinking of.
quote:
>with a surface mount breaker panel on a large flat wooden board on
>one wall, can I run NM cable emerging from that panel along the
>surface of that board?
To answer the running of nm anywhere, do you think it's at risk? Will
a inspector think it's at risk?
If so imho, protect it.
later,
tom @ www.WorkAtHomePlans.com
| |
| phil-news-nospam@ipal.net 2005-06-17, 11:29 pm |
| On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:38:01 -0500 The Real Tom <Tom @ www.love-calculators.com> wrote:
| On 23 Mar 2005 18:11:07 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
|
|>The NEC requires protection of wiring from damage in locations where
|>it is at risk of being damaged. But just what constitutes such a
|>risk?
|>
|>If I put a breaker panel in a closet dedicated to electrical wiring,
|
| Think the NEC states not to put any disconnects in a closet. Don't
| know the actual code offhand, but i'm wondering if I understand the
| question too. If I did, I'll get the code reference I'm thinking of.
I think the idea is to not put them in a _storage_ closet. But, OK,
I'll put it in an "electrical room". Now, how small can I make this
"electrical room"? The NEC states a clearance required in front of
the panel. Clearly the "electrical room" must be at least this large
and I would presume that also means an inward swinging door must not
intrude on this space.
In another forum in the past I asked about having the panel enclosed
in an area where there was just a few cm between the panel and the door
to the area, but the doors were the double folding type and would swing
well out of the way when open, leaving a fully compliant space in front
of the panel (e.g. part of the hallway). The general concensus was
this was OK (and one person said he has even done exactly that).
Either way, if the space is reserved for nothing but electrical wiring,
and there would be no reason to enter the space except to deal with the
electrical wiring or panel therein, and it would otherwise be closed off,
it would seem to me that exposed NM wiring would not be subject to casual
damage.
|>with a surface mount breaker panel on a large flat wooden board on
|>one wall, can I run NM cable emerging from that panel along the
|>surface of that board?
|
| To answer the running of nm anywhere, do you think it's at risk? Will
| a inspector think it's at risk?
|
| If so imho, protect it.
But I want to find out the various opinions on it. I don't have a
specific AHJ to ask, because I don't know (yet) where this house will
be built. What I want to know is the general feeling about it to
decide how the design of this house will proceed.
I do not want all the circuits coming out of the panel in one fat
bundle of cables. But I also don't want a bunch of lame conduits (by
that I mean it just goes a short distance, but clutters up the space
around the panel) all over the place, either, for a few reasons. I'd
like each cable to exit the panel principly on the sides, and then
proceed up or down from there along the full height backboard the panel
is on.
I suppose what I could do is build a layer of stud board forward of the
backboard, with lots of notches cut out facing the backboard to run all
the NMs through. Then put bolts on the fronts of these studs at the
top and bottom and cover the space between studs with clear plastic
acrylic sheets with keyholes cut out to mate the bolts.
Being able to see where a cable goes is important to me. Two or more
cables in one conduit is bad. Too many conduits is bad. I'm NOT going
to be building this house in Chicago or Austin, or other big cities with
crazy building codes.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| Roy Q.T. 2005-06-17, 11:29 pm |
| Phil: From what I've read & seen if the panel is mounted in a closet
and it is an interior wall you o not need to use a wooden panel bcking,
it can go flat on that all, concering the wires , Yes you can tack or
staple them down the wall and on as long as they are not dangling ( my
word) at any point or in the way of any movable object or path; there is
a specific distance for tacking or stapling the cables to panel and box
enree and exits.
=AEoy
| |
| phil-news-nospam@ipal.net 2005-06-17, 11:29 pm |
| On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:48:18 -0500 Roy Q.T. <ROYKEY@webtv.net> wrote:
| Phil: From what I've read & seen if the panel is mounted in a closet
| and it is an interior wall you o not need to use a wooden panel bcking,
| it can go flat on that all, concering the wires , Yes you can tack or
| staple them down the wall and on as long as they are not dangling ( my
| word) at any point or in the way of any movable object or path; there is
| a specific distance for tacking or stapling the cables to panel and box
| enree and exits.
The wall will be either open studs or have a board there. It will be an
interior space. The actual service entrance will be just a main breaker
by itself, in a 3R box, in a closet on the back porch. The reason is
any other location will have too much unprotected service feed run. The
interior location will be relatively near the kitchen on one side, and
the main stairway on the other side. I have not decided whether the
required clearance for the panel(s) will be entirely inside the closet
or will include the hallway passing by the closet (perhaps slide open
doors to just cover a slightly recessed wiring "closet"). I may be
including a lighting UPS system (so critical lights do not go out while
the generator is starting up), and that may influence how some of this
is done.
The idea I have is to put circuits that go to upper floors on the upper
portions of the breaker space, run the cables out sideways from the panel,
and then given them nice wide radius bends to the upward direction, to go
up to the ceiling area where they enter the walls. Likewise for circuits
below the panel, they will be in the lower portion of the breaker space,
go out sideways, and have nice wide radius bends downward. Those on the
same floor will be part of the upper or lower group depending on which
way they reach their destination.
I want to have the minimum amount of wire stuffed inside the panel box as
possible. But I also don't want to just cut off the cable to fit, either.
So my thought is to let it "run around" a bit as a means to keep a few
extra inches in case something ever does need to be moved.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| |
| me@home.com 2005-06-17, 11:29 pm |
| If nothing intrudes into the reserved space, then the working space is
satisfied and just the physical damamge is a concern. I am picturing
my own service entrance on the basement wall with romex stapled to
plywood, in the open.
If a future inspector were to require protection, use a recessed
panel, bury the romex in the wall, by make the wall sections around
the panel removable, so that you can visually inspect.
The problem with romex and conduit is that it is very easy to violate
the conduit fill percentage, because of the cross section of the
cable. Technically 12/2 romex is too large for 1/2" conduit.
If identifying is an issue, flag the cable with the breaker number,
now I don't even have to take off the cover to work with a circuit
because the cable are labeled externally. Just keep up on the
labeling.
On 24 Mar 2005 19:34:10 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
quote:
>On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 09:38:01 -0500 The Real Tom <Tom @ www.love-calculators.com> wrote:
>| On 23 Mar 2005 18:11:07 GMT, phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
>|
>|>The NEC requires protection of wiring from damage in locations where
>|>it is at risk of being damaged. But just what constitutes such a
>|>risk?
>|>
>|>If I put a breaker panel in a closet dedicated to electrical wiring,
>|
>| Think the NEC states not to put any disconnects in a closet. Don't
>| know the actual code offhand, but i'm wondering if I understand the
>| question too. If I did, I'll get the code reference I'm thinking of.
>
>I think the idea is to not put them in a _storage_ closet. But, OK,
>I'll put it in an "electrical room". Now, how small can I make this
>"electrical room"? The NEC states a clearance required in front of
>the panel. Clearly the "electrical room" must be at least this large
>and I would presume that also means an inward swinging door must not
>intrude on this space.
>
>In another forum in the past I asked about having the panel enclosed
>in an area where there was just a few cm between the panel and the door
>to the area, but the doors were the double folding type and would swing
>well out of the way when open, leaving a fully compliant space in front
>of the panel (e.g. part of the hallway). The general concensus was
>this was OK (and one person said he has even done exactly that).
>
>Either way, if the space is reserved for nothing but electrical wiring,
>and there would be no reason to enter the space except to deal with the
>electrical wiring or panel therein, and it would otherwise be closed off,
>it would seem to me that exposed NM wiring would not be subject to casual
>damage.
>
>
>|>with a surface mount breaker panel on a large flat wooden board on
>|>one wall, can I run NM cable emerging from that panel along the
>|>surface of that board?
>|
>| To answer the running of nm anywhere, do you think it's at risk? Will
>| a inspector think it's at risk?
>|
>| If so imho, protect it.
>
>But I want to find out the various opinions on it. I don't have a
>specific AHJ to ask, because I don't know (yet) where this house will
>be built. What I want to know is the general feeling about it to
>decide how the design of this house will proceed.
>
>I do not want all the circuits coming out of the panel in one fat
>bundle of cables. But I also don't want a bunch of lame conduits (by
>that I mean it just goes a short distance, but clutters up the space
>around the panel) all over the place, either, for a few reasons. I'd
>like each cable to exit the panel principly on the sides, and then
>proceed up or down from there along the full height backboard the panel
>is on.
>
>I suppose what I could do is build a layer of stud board forward of the
>backboard, with lots of notches cut out facing the backboard to run all
>the NMs through. Then put bolts on the fronts of these studs at the
>top and bottom and cover the space between studs with clear plastic
>acrylic sheets with keyholes cut out to mate the bolts.
>
>Being able to see where a cable goes is important to me. Two or more
>cables in one conduit is bad. Too many conduits is bad. I'm NOT going
>to be building this house in Chicago or Austin, or other big cities with
>crazy building codes.
| |
| phil-news-nospam@ipal.net 2005-06-17, 11:29 pm |
| On Sat, 26 Mar 2005 13:37:10 GMT me@home.com wrote:
| If nothing intrudes into the reserved space, then the working space is
| satisfied and just the physical damamge is a concern. I am picturing
| my own service entrance on the basement wall with romex stapled to
| plywood, in the open.
I am picturing something quite different. It would be a small room with
no reason to enter it except to reset a breaker, work on the wiring, or
just admire the view. Otherwise the door is closed and nothing intrudes.
It's not a storage space. But I could leave some old cartridge and plug
fuses lying around to make people scratch their heads :-)
Rooms like this would not even be walled over; just open stud. That
would make it easier to find where various openings to other floors
are.
| If a future inspector were to require protection, use a recessed
| panel, bury the romex in the wall, by make the wall sections around
| the panel removable, so that you can visually inspect.
Plexiglass walls :-)
| The problem with romex and conduit is that it is very easy to violate
| the conduit fill percentage, because of the cross section of the
| cable. Technically 12/2 romex is too large for 1/2" conduit.
My brother's house has 2 conduits that look like about 4 inches wide
with all the branch romex stuff into them. And it is stuffed tight.
I'd be worried except for the fact that the length of it is about 2
feet. Everything is at the top. The main conduit comes into the
middle and these 2 branch conduits each come out to the left or right
of the main. They open just above the lower end of joists, and all
the romex fans out from there. That's _not_ what I want to do.
My parent's first house, built in the late 60's, had a 200 amp panel
with about 28 circuits. It was on a board on a block wall in the
basement. It was a wall perpendicular to the outside wall, about 3
feet from the outside wall, so the main was fairly short unprotected
some kind of service entrance cable. All the branch circuits came
out sideways from the panel on each side, did a 90 degree turn, and
went up to the ceiling. Well, not quite all ... a couple came out
the top. IMHO, it was all done rather poor quality, but basically
in the style I want to do (but spread it out more).
| If identifying is an issue, flag the cable with the breaker number,
| now I don't even have to take off the cover to work with a circuit
| because the cable are labeled externally. Just keep up on the
| labeling.
I feel more confident with following the cables.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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