Electrical code Compliance - Trying to run a 110 outlet off of a 2phase w/no neutral box.

Author

Trying to run a 110 outlet off of a 2phase w/no neutral box.

Larry

2005-06-17, 11:30 pm

Good day..
I am tring to install power to my new barn and figured I could tap
off of my existing well panel. The question I have is this, If i want
to run a straight single phase outlet to the barn for lighting and I
only have 2 phase 240V w/ground and no neutral at the well how do I
get a neutral side? Is this possible or should I do it differently?
Thanks for any help in advanced.

2005-06-17, 11:30 pm

If i want

quote:

> to run a straight single phase outlet to the barn for lighting and I
> only have 2 phase 240V w/ground and no neutral at the well how do I
> get a neutral side? Is this possible or should I do it differently?

There is no legal and dependable way to make this work. However, all is not
lost....

I would explore using a transformer in the barn. Take 240 from your well
panel into the barn to the xfmr primary. Then set a small panel and connect
it to the secondary of the xfmr. The xfmr will allow you to have a neutral,
properly grounded and reliable. (also legal)

Your other option, in my mind, is to run a completely separate circuit from
your source to the barn with a neutral and a ground.

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2005-06-17, 11:30 pm

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 07:35:47 -0400 rieker5.nospam.ever@hotmail.com wrote:
|
| If i want
|> to run a straight single phase outlet to the barn for lighting and I
|> only have 2 phase 240V w/ground and no neutral at the well how do I
|> get a neutral side? Is this possible or should I do it differently?
|
| There is no legal and dependable way to make this work. However, all is not
| lost....
|
| I would explore using a transformer in the barn. Take 240 from your well
| panel into the barn to the xfmr primary. Then set a small panel and connect
| it to the secondary of the xfmr. The xfmr will allow you to have a neutral,
| properly grounded and reliable. (also legal)
|
| Your other option, in my mind, is to run a completely separate circuit from
| your source to the barn with a neutral and a ground.

Or use low voltage lighting. Many of these transformers accept 240 volts
and/or 277 volts input, and are relatively low cost as part of a lighting
system. If you use a 277 volts to 12 volt transformer on 240 volts you
will get about 10.4 volts out. Lights will be dimmer but can work. Many
of these transformers also have 13 and 14 volt secondary taps that can be
used instead, giving you 11.25 and 12.12 volts.

Or use fluorescent or HID lighting. Ballasts can be had with taps for 240
volts. As long as this is not a living area, it won't fall under the NEC
section that limits lighting voltage to 120 volts.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Larry

2005-06-17, 11:30 pm

Thanks for the help..I thought that is what I would have to do...
:roll: Do you know if I should install a new ground rod to the barn
panel or is it ok to just pull the ground from the main at the well?
Or is it ok to do both? The only thing I will be installing in the
barn is ligting but never know what I may do down the road.
Thanks again..

2005-06-17, 11:30 pm

Do you know if I should install a new ground rod to the barn

quote:

> panel or is it ok to just pull the ground from the main at the well?
> Or is it ok to do both?

The code requires a valid ground on the neutral (see 'separately derived
systems')....from what you describe, I would drive a rod...maybe two... and
bring the ground from your pump along and bond them all together at the
barn. I assume your barn is wood construction....if it happened to be
metal, that would need to be bonded to the ground point as well.

Other than human safety, the reason a barn needs good grounding is for
livestock. You may not have any, but in places where they are present, some
livestock are way less tolerant of errant electrical discharges than humans.

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2005-06-17, 11:30 pm

On Tue, 26 Apr 2005 13:32:02 -0400 rieker5.nospam.ever@hotmail.com wrote:
|
| Do you know if I should install a new ground rod to the barn
|> panel or is it ok to just pull the ground from the main at the well?
|> Or is it ok to do both?
|
| The code requires a valid ground on the neutral (see 'separately derived
| systems')....from what you describe, I would drive a rod...maybe two... and
| bring the ground from your pump along and bond them all together at the
| barn. I assume your barn is wood construction....if it happened to be
| metal, that would need to be bonded to the ground point as well.
|
| Other than human safety, the reason a barn needs good grounding is for
| livestock. You may not have any, but in places where they are present, some
| livestock are way less tolerant of errant electrical discharges than humans.

You would be less tolerant of errant electricity, too, if you were always
walking around barefoot on ground splattered with your own urine and feces.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roy Q.T.

2005-06-17, 11:30 pm

phil wrote:

| Do you know if I should install a new ground rod to the barn
panel or is it ok to just pull the ground from the main at the well?
*{{{Only if it has it's own disconnect}}}}* Or is it ok to do both?
|
| The code requires a valid ground on the neutral (see 'separately
derived | systems')..=3D{doesn't qualify}..from what you describe, I would=

drive a rod...maybe two... and | bring the ground from your pump along
and bond them all together at the | barn. I assume your barn is wood
construction....if it happened to be | metal, that would need to be
bonded to the ground point as well.
|
| Other than human safety, the reason a barn needs good grounding is for
| livestock. You may not have any, but in places where they are present,
some | livestock are way less tolerant of errant electrical discharges
than humans.

quote:

>You would be less tolerant of errant electricity, too, if you were

always walking around barefoot on ground splattered with your own urine
and feces.

quote:

>------------------------------------------>

I can't imagine what type of source he is considering for the barn
circuit, but that sucks., even more than the odd city type problems I
encounter: a 220VAC panel with No Neutral??? Sounds Like a Disconnect
for some Farm Equipment }:-o I'd run an entirely new circuit for the
barn with neutral & ground from the Main Panel.

*** If I was to Install a "Disconnect" for it with a seperate small
panel at the barn, then I would bond it to earth, otherwise I'd only use
GFI Breakers at the source panel & No additional Neutral Bonding. =AEoy

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2005-06-17, 11:30 pm

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 23:23:09 -0400 Roy Q.T. <ROYKEY@webtv.net> wrote:

| phil wrote:
|
| | Do you know if I should install a new ground rod to the barn
| panel or is it ok to just pull the ground from the main at the well?
| *{{{Only if it has it's own disconnect}}}}* Or is it ok to do both?
| |
| | The code requires a valid ground on the neutral (see 'separately
| derived | systems')..={doesn't qualify}..from what you describe, I would
| drive a rod...maybe two... and | bring the ground from your pump along
| and bond them all together at the | barn. I assume your barn is wood
| construction....if it happened to be | metal, that would need to be
| bonded to the ground point as well.
| |
| | Other than human safety, the reason a barn needs good grounding is for
| | livestock. You may not have any, but in places where they are present,
| some | livestock are way less tolerant of errant electrical discharges
| than humans.
|>You would be less tolerant of errant electricity, too, if you were
| always walking around barefoot on ground splattered with your own urine
| and feces.
|
|>------------------------------------------>
| I can't imagine what type of source he is considering for the barn
| circuit, but that sucks., even more than the odd city type problems I
| encounter: a 220VAC panel with No Neutral??? Sounds Like a Disconnect
| for some Farm Equipment }:-o I'd run an entirely new circuit for the
| barn with neutral & ground from the Main Panel.
|
| *** If I was to Install a "Disconnect" for it with a seperate small
| panel at the barn, then I would bond it to earth, otherwise I'd only use
| GFI Breakers at the source panel & No additional Neutral Bonding. ?oy

Roy,

Your posts would be a little less confusing if you were to learn the
standard practice of quoting previous posts that you are following up
on. The way to do it is to indent the passage with some prefix character
(such as a ">" or "|" ... just be consistent in your choice). Don't
just quote the whole thing unless it is small. Quote in sections if you
need to reply to each one, so it is obvious which reply goes with which
quoted passage.

But at least you are not top posting. People who do that are quite
annoying.

As for a feed with no neutral, I see no problem with it ... if limited in
context to strictly 240 volt 2-wire loads. If installing one, I would
always include the neutral unless the entire feed is intended to be run
through an isolation transformer at the other end to make a separately
derived system. But I would have no problem with leaving out the neutral
on branch circuits to dedicated 2-wire loads that are hardwired or are
supplying NEMA 6-XX outlet(s). The issue more likely needs to consider
future use of the wiring (for something that might need a neutral).

I just wish someone would make AC/MC/NM/UF cable with black-red-ground.

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Roy Q.T.

2005-06-17, 11:30 pm

Phil
I did it right with separators and all, some sneaky a-hole with mastery
over these pages has been deleting or modifying some of my posts that's
all. =AEoy

Who ever he is : Back Off Twerp ! and what happened to the virtual
puzzle I posted a month ago ? don't think I've forgotten....}:-(

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