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Home > Archive > Electrical code Compliance > January 2006 > Panel breakers. How many?
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Panel breakers. How many?
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| David Hunt 2006-01-20, 12:21 am |
| I have a 1980's Crouse-Hinds panelboard.
When I installed it, I got the forty position one.
Now I'm adding an addition and wanted to free up some space for the
additional circuits.
I doubled up on a few locations by placing double breakers into the slots.
This will give me a few slots for the new circuits.
Is this OK, or will the inspector fry a gasket on this?
How many can I use -if they are OK to use?
Does the new code have this issue addressed in it, or will it be local
jurisdiction stuff?
Any info you may have for me would be appreciated.
thanks,
dave
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| SQLit 2006-01-20, 12:21 pm |
|
"David Hunt" <dhunt911@REMOVEverizon.NO-SPAM-OR-CRAP.net> wrote in message
news:gPYzf.2157$Ym3.2113@trndny09...
> I have a 1980's Crouse-Hinds panelboard.
> When I installed it, I got the forty position one.
> Now I'm adding an addition and wanted to free up some space for the
> additional circuits.
> I doubled up on a few locations by placing double breakers into the slots.
> This will give me a few slots for the new circuits.
> Is this OK, or will the inspector fry a gasket on this?
> How many can I use -if they are OK to use?
> Does the new code have this issue addressed in it, or will it be local
> jurisdiction stuff?
> Any info you may have for me would be appreciated.
> thanks,
> dave
On the cover or in the UL listing is the number of double/twins you can
install. It will look like
40/60 or something like that.
Have you checked with the utility and found out what your largest demand
was?
| |
| Adrienne Hendrickson 2006-01-20, 1:21 pm |
|
"David Hunt" <dhunt911@REMOVEverizon.NO-SPAM-OR-CRAP.net> wrote in message
news:gPYzf.2157$Ym3.2113@trndny09...
>I have a 1980's Crouse-Hinds panelboard.
> When I installed it, I got the forty position one.
> Now I'm adding an addition and wanted to free up some space for the
> additional circuits.
> I doubled up on a few locations by placing double breakers into the slots.
> This will give me a few slots for the new circuits.
> Is this OK, or will the inspector fry a gasket on this?
> How many can I use -if they are OK to use?
> Does the new code have this issue addressed in it, or will it be local
> jurisdiction stuff?
> Any info you may have for me would be appreciated.
> thanks,
> dave
>
>
Your panel is most likely classified as a 'lighting and appliance
branch-circuit panelboard' (NEC 408.14(A)). As such, the NEC 408.15 limits
the number of overcurrent devices to 42 in any one cabinet or box, not
counting the main device. This article considers a 2-pole breakers as two
overcurrent devices, etc. Note: references are to the 2002 NEC. Check with
your local authority having jurisdiction as to the applicable edition.
From your description, it sounds like you will most likely exceed the
allowable 42 overcurrent devices with your current plan/arrangement. One
option would be to add a sub-panel, which would be fed from your first
panel.
If you are adding an addition, you should also check the actual amp capacity
of your panel and service to see if you have the room to accomodate the
additional circuits.
Given what is sounds like you want to do, the work most likely requires a
building permit, which requires a sketch and usually an electrician. Check
with your local authority having jurisdiction.
Hope this helps - Adrienne
| |
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| David Hunt wrote:
> I have a 1980's Crouse-Hinds panelboard.
> When I installed it, I got the forty position one.
> Now I'm adding an addition and wanted to free up some space for the
> additional circuits.
> I doubled up on a few locations by placing double breakers into the slots.
> This will give me a few slots for the new circuits.
> Is this OK, or will the inspector fry a gasket on this?
> How many can I use -if they are OK to use?
> Does the new code have this issue addressed in it, or will it be local
> jurisdiction stuff?
> Any info you may have for me would be appreciated.
> thanks,
> dave
>
>
Many years ago UL in their standard for panels limited the number of
'poles' that can be installed in a panel. (a 220V breaker is 2 poles, a
12V breaker is 1 pole, a 120V tandem breaker is 2 poles.) The maximum
number of poles in a 100A 120/240V panel is 20. (In a 200A panel 40.) If
a panel has positions for 16 full sized poles it could have 4 more poles
and stay under the 20 limit. These can be installed as 4 120V tandem
breakers. To prevent more than 4 tandem breakers from being installed, a
tandem breaker has a device that allows installation only at positions
where the panel rail has a matching feature. Only 4 positions on the
rail can have this feature. These breakers are called class CTL (circuit
limiting). (A 100A panel may be designed so fewer than 20 total poles
can be installed.) Previous to the class CTL panels tandem breakers were
the same as full other breakers and could be installed in any position
(or all the positions). Last I heard these non-CTL breakers were still
available. As indicated by SQLit, the panel label should indicate how
many poles can be installed and also list the breakers that can be used
in that panel. A class CTL panel will not have non-CTL breakers on the
list and it is a code violation to install a breaker that is not on the
list.
If you have a 200 A panel you are over the limit. Will the inspector
have a cat? Who knows. If the panel looks like it was neatly done that
may be as far as he looks, if he even looks that far.
The proper way to go over the CTL limit is to add a subpanel, move some
circuits to the subpanel to free space in the main panel and add a
breaker for the subpanel.
bud--
| |
| David Hunt 2006-01-21, 12:21 am |
|
"Adrienne Hendrickson" <ah9u@virginia.edu> wrote in message
news:dqr2od$q91$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
> Your panel is most likely classified as a 'lighting and appliance
> branch-circuit panelboard' (NEC 408.14(A)). As such, the NEC 408.15
limits
> the number of overcurrent devices to 42 in any one cabinet or box, not
> counting the main device. This article considers a 2-pole breakers as two
> overcurrent devices, etc. Note: references are to the 2002 NEC. Check with
> your local authority having jurisdiction as to the applicable edition.
>
> From your description, it sounds like you will most likely exceed the
> allowable 42 overcurrent devices with your current plan/arrangement. One
> option would be to add a sub-panel, which would be fed from your first
> panel.
>
> If you are adding an addition, you should also check the actual amp
capacity
> of your panel and service to see if you have the room to accomodate the
> additional circuits.
>
> Given what is sounds like you want to do, the work most likely requires a
> building permit, which requires a sketch and usually an electrician. Check
> with your local authority having jurisdiction.
> Hope this helps - Adrienne
>
>
Adrienne
It looks like I will most likely end up with a subpanel.
Everything you point out makes sense.
The sub panel (should I decide to go this way) will be a foot or two
away.
Will I need to bond the grounds inside the subpanel and keep the
grounded wires non-bonded to the case?
I remember something about making sure the box was grounded because
someone could touch the main panel and the subpanel at the same time.
What does this require for me to do in the new code?
AND I thank you all for your time and effort on my rudimentary
questions.
later,
dave
| |
| David Hunt 2006-01-21, 12:21 am |
|
"Adrienne Hendrickson" <ah9u@virginia.edu> wrote in message
news:dqr2od$q91$1@murdoch.acc.Virginia.EDU...
> Your panel is most likely classified as a 'lighting and appliance
> branch-circuit panelboard' (NEC 408.14(A)). As such, the NEC 408.15
limits
> the number of overcurrent devices to 42 in any one cabinet or box, not
> counting the main device. This article considers a 2-pole breakers as two
> overcurrent devices, etc. Note: references are to the 2002 NEC. Check with
> your local authority having jurisdiction as to the applicable edition.
>
> From your description, it sounds like you will most likely exceed the
> allowable 42 overcurrent devices with your current plan/arrangement. One
> option would be to add a sub-panel, which would be fed from your first
> panel.
>
> If you are adding an addition, you should also check the actual amp
capacity
> of your panel and service to see if you have the room to accomodate the
> additional circuits.
>
> Given what is sounds like you want to do, the work most likely requires a
> building permit, which requires a sketch and usually an electrician. Check
> with your local authority having jurisdiction.
> Hope this helps - Adrienne
>
>
Adrienne
It looks like I will most likely end up with a subpanel.
Everything you point out makes sense.
The sub panel (should I decide to go this way) will be a foot or two
away.
Will I need to bond the grounds inside the subpanel and keep the
grounded wires non-bonded to the case?
I remember something about making sure the box was grounded because
someone could touch the main panel and the subpanel at the same time.
What does this require for me to do in the new code?
AND I thank you all for your time and effort on my rudimentary
questions.
later,
dave
| |
| David Hunt 2006-01-21, 12:21 am |
|
"Bud--" <remove.BudNews@isp.com> wrote in message
news:da095$43d14786$4213ebbf$421@DIALUPUSA.NET...
> Many years ago UL in their standard for panels limited the number of
> 'poles' that can be installed in a panel. (a 220V breaker is 2 poles, a
> 12V breaker is 1 pole, a 120V tandem breaker is 2 poles.) The maximum
> number of poles in a 100A 120/240V panel is 20. (In a 200A panel 40.) If
> a panel has positions for 16 full sized poles it could have 4 more poles
> and stay under the 20 limit. These can be installed as 4 120V tandem
> breakers. To prevent more than 4 tandem breakers from being installed, a
> tandem breaker has a device that allows installation only at positions
> where the panel rail has a matching feature. Only 4 positions on the
> rail can have this feature. These breakers are called class CTL (circuit
> limiting). (A 100A panel may be designed so fewer than 20 total poles
> can be installed.) Previous to the class CTL panels tandem breakers were
> the same as full other breakers and could be installed in any position
> (or all the positions). Last I heard these non-CTL breakers were still
> available. As indicated by SQLit, the panel label should indicate how
> many poles can be installed and also list the breakers that can be used
> in that panel. A class CTL panel will not have non-CTL breakers on the
> list and it is a code violation to install a breaker that is not on the
> list.
>
> If you have a 200 A panel you are over the limit. Will the inspector
> have a cat? Who knows. If the panel looks like it was neatly done that
> may be as far as he looks, if he even looks that far.
>
> The proper way to go over the CTL limit is to add a subpanel, move some
> circuits to the subpanel to free space in the main panel and add a
> breaker for the subpanel.
>
> bud--
Bud
It looks like I will most likely end up with a subpanel.
Everything you point out makes sense.
The sub panel (should I decide to go this way) will be a foot or two
away.
Will I need to bond the grounds inside the subpanel and keep the
grounded wires non-bonded to the case?
I remember something about making sure the box was grounded because
someone could touch the main panel and the subpanel at the same time.
What does this require for me to do in the new code?
AND I thank you all for your time and effort on my rudimentary
questions.
later,
dave
| |
|
| David Hunt wrote:
> "Bud--" <remove.BudNews@isp.com> wrote in message
> news:da095$43d14786$4213ebbf$421@DIALUPUSA.NET...
>
>
>
>
> Bud
>
> It looks like I will most likely end up with a subpanel.
> Everything you point out makes sense.
>
> The sub panel (should I decide to go this way) will be a foot or two
> away.
> Will I need to bond the grounds inside the subpanel and keep the
> grounded wires non-bonded to the case?
> I remember something about making sure the box was grounded because
> someone could touch the main panel and the subpanel at the same time.
> What does this require for me to do in the new code?
>
> AND I thank you all for your time and effort on my rudimentary
> questions.
> later,
> dave
>
>
>
The subpanel neutral bar is not connected to the enclosure (as it would
be for a service). If you have ground wires you need a ground bar, good
idea anyway for future. The enclosure, as any metal enclosure, has to be
grounded. Could be done with the pipe connecting it to the service, if
EMT/pipe is used. Or ground wire in romex if used.
bud--
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