Electrical code Compliance - Grounds and Neutrals in Panel

Author

Grounds and Neutrals in Panel

David Hunt

2006-01-20, 12:21 am

When I originally put in my panel (with the help of my brother -whom I can't
ask now because he id deceased);
we started to put the grounds and neutrals under separate screws on the
grounding bars. Then the inspector
had us change them all so that the ground and it's associated neutral was
under the same screw. We did it, and
all went well.

Now I was told by the inspector (a different one) that I had to get all of
the neutrals under their own screw, and I could
place multiple grounds under a single screw. "It is the code." Is this true?
I don't mind one way or the other, but he is
making me take out all of the previously accepted wires and re-doing them.

I don't really mind doing this if it is new code, but is it code -or just
inspector preference. Will i have to re-do it back
again with the next inspector?

thanks for thinking about this for me

Dave

SQLit

2006-01-20, 12:21 pm

"David Hunt" <dhunt911@REMOVEverizon.NO-SPAM-OR-CRAP.net> wrote in message
news:TWYzf.9894$8r1.6634@trndny01...
> When I originally put in my panel (with the help of my brother -whom I
can't
> ask now because he id deceased);
> we started to put the grounds and neutrals under separate screws on the
> grounding bars. Then the inspector
> had us change them all so that the ground and it's associated neutral was
> under the same screw. We did it, and
> all went well.
>
> Now I was told by the inspector (a different one) that I had to get all of
> the neutrals under their own screw, and I could
> place multiple grounds under a single screw. "It is the code." Is this
true?
> I don't mind one way or the other, but he is
> making me take out all of the previously accepted wires and re-doing them.
>
> I don't really mind doing this if it is new code, but is it code -or just
> inspector preference. Will i have to re-do it back
> again with the next inspector?
>
> thanks for thinking about this for me
>
> Dave

If your really on the service entrance panel. Then it really does not make
any difference. Ground and neutrals are the same at that location. If the
panel has a bus labeled ground then I would put all the grounds on it. What
I would want to know is who is coming back? I would probably grumble under
my breath and change it. Is it really worth the argument?

Chalk it up to house keeping. Usually grounds and neutrals are separate.

Eric Tappert

2006-01-20, 4:21 pm

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 03:38:27 GMT, "David Hunt"
<dhunt911@REMOVEverizon.NO-SPAM-OR-CRAP.net> wrote:

>When I originally put in my panel (with the help of my brother -whom I can't
>ask now because he id deceased);
>we started to put the grounds and neutrals under separate screws on the
>grounding bars. Then the inspector
>had us change them all so that the ground and it's associated neutral was
>under the same screw. We did it, and
>all went well.
>
>Now I was told by the inspector (a different one) that I had to get all of
>the neutrals under their own screw, and I could
>place multiple grounds under a single screw. "It is the code." Is this true?
>I don't mind one way or the other, but he is
>making me take out all of the previously accepted wires and re-doing them.
>
>I don't really mind doing this if it is new code, but is it code -or just
>inspector preference. Will i have to re-do it back
>again with the next inspector?
>
>thanks for thinking about this for me
>
>Dave
>

This is code, per the NEC in the United States. See article 408,
section 41 (in the 2005 code, the section had a different number in
the 2002 edition. I don't have any older versions, so I don't know
when it was added) states:

"Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an
individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor."

The rationale behind this rule is that it may be necessary to
disconnect the grounded circuit conductor (neutral) for a branch
circuit or feeder for testing and having multiple wires on the
terminal is problematic from a variety of perspectives. Grounds can
be doubled up only if the listing for the terminal allows multiple
wires under one screw.

Hope this helps.

Eric Tappert

David Hunt

2006-01-21, 12:21 am

I appreciate the reply. MOST informative, and I'm sure that someone else may
benefit from your reply -as I did.

So my brother was right in trying to install them as he first did. I wonder
why the inspector back then wanted them this way. It does make sense though;
I just replaced a few breakers with Arc Faults and it was a little bit of a
pain making sure the ground stayed in place while I was removing the
grounded wire -to put in the Arc Faults.

I guess I'll just plan on shutting off the Main Breaker and re-doing them
all over the right way. Sounds like this way always was the proper way and
probably will remain this way forever (as long as I'm around)

I do thank you again for looking this up for me.

Dave

"Eric Tappert" <e.tappert.spamnot@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:t2f2t1ptonumgti0ooa3e1dstngpffvrgr@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 03:38:27 GMT, "David Hunt"
> <dhunt911@REMOVEverizon.NO-SPAM-OR-CRAP.net> wrote:
>
can't[color=darkred]
of[color=darkred]
true?[color=darkred]
them.[color=darkred]
>
>
> This is code, per the NEC in the United States. See article 408,
> section 41 (in the 2005 code, the section had a different number in
> the 2002 edition. I don't have any older versions, so I don't know
> when it was added) states:
>
> "Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the panelboard in an
> individual terminal that is not also used for another conductor."
>
> The rationale behind this rule is that it may be necessary to
> disconnect the grounded circuit conductor (neutral) for a branch
> circuit or feeder for testing and having multiple wires on the
> terminal is problematic from a variety of perspectives. Grounds can
> be doubled up only if the listing for the terminal allows multiple
> wires under one screw.
>
> Hope this helps.
>
> Eric Tappert

Thomas Horne

2006-01-21, 1:21 am

SQLit wrote:
> "David Hunt" <dhunt911@REMOVEverizon.NO-SPAM-OR-CRAP.net> wrote in message
> news:TWYzf.9894$8r1.6634@trndny01...
> can't
> true?
>
> If your really on the service entrance panel. Then it really does not make
> any difference. Ground and neutrals are the same at that location. If the
> panel has a bus labeled ground then I would put all the grounds on it. What
> I would want to know is who is coming back? I would probably grumble under
> my breath and change it. Is it really worth the argument?
>
> Chalk it up to house keeping. Usually grounds and neutrals are separate.
>
>

If the installation is done under the US NEC it forbids; and has for
some time; having two neutral conductors under the same screw. Many
panels are listed for having two or three grounds under the single screw
terminals. The second inspector is following the NEC as written.
--
Tom Horne

Joerg

2006-01-30, 11:21 pm

Hello David,

>
> Now I was told by the inspector (a different one) that I had to get all of
> the neutrals under their own screw, and I could
> place multiple grounds under a single screw. "It is the code."

Multiple grounds under a single screw? That doesn't sound right and
probably not NEC compliant. Personally I would not do that.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Steve

2006-01-31, 3:21 am

[color=darkred]

The inspector is correct. The 2005 NEC 408.41 States "Grounded Conductor
Terminations: Each grounded conductor shall terminate within the
panelboard in an individual terminal that is not also used for another
conductor"

There is no such requirement for the grounding conductors.

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2006-02-05, 5:21 am

On Fri, 20 Jan 2006 19:45:48 GMT Eric Tappert <e.tappert.spamnot@worldnet.att.net> wrote:

| The rationale behind this rule is that it may be necessary to
| disconnect the grounded circuit conductor (neutral) for a branch
| circuit or feeder for testing and having multiple wires on the
| terminal is problematic from a variety of perspectives. Grounds can
| be doubled up only if the listing for the terminal allows multiple
| wires under one screw.

I disagree with that rationale. I believe the correct rationale is
a combination of two good reasons. One is that it may be necessary
to disconnect _other_ conductors (grounded conductors of other circuits
or grounding conductors of any circuit) causing the grounded conductor
sharing the terminal to become loose, possibly under load. The other
is that having multiple conductors under load can, through temperature
changes, cause conductors to become loose when multiple conductors are
present. Any grounded conductor must assumed to be carrying current
under load, while a grounding conductor would not normally be doing that.
A grounded conductor by itself in a terminal is less likely to become
loose as a result of heating. While not perfect, that's the best you
can do for the grounded conductor or any phase conductor.

I hope everyone here knows the hazards of a loose neutral.

More for reasons of esthetics, when the code doesn't require it, I would
always install every conductor, including grounding conductors, in its
own terminal, when grounded and grounding conductors on separate terminal
bars even where the neutrals need to be bonded to ground (thus that would
be done with a jumper between the neutral bar and ground bar).

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

billb@abc.net

2006-02-06, 5:21 pm

The best solution is to use DIN rail terminals, commonly used throughout
Europe only allow a single wire to be connected into one terminal, but each
terminal connect back onto the mounting rail to provide a common earth
connection. Therefore it is easy to add earth terminals to ensure you follow
the rule of one wire into each terminal. The alternative is to use a brass
multi-way earthing bar where a number of connection points are available in
the single brass bar.

When we inspect machine we always insist on a single wire in a terminal, be
it for power, control or earthing unless the terminal is specifically
designed to take more than one wire. The only example of this I know of, is
on some contactor and relays where the cable clamp is designed to hold two
wires.

BillB

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