Electrical code Compliance - Rogue Computer Sellers on Ebay--Not FCC Compliant--Cheap Parts

Author

Rogue Computer Sellers on Ebay--Not FCC Compliant--Cheap Parts

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-01-28, 3:21 pm

I recently visited a friend while on vacation in the U.S. He had a
computer that was interferring with an old VCR that he had. This VCR
was quote old so I suspect the problem might have been partly with the
VCR.

The computer was bought on eBay and has no FCC stickers or
identification whatsoever. According to the manual the motherboard does
have FCC certification, but a Google search shows it to be a "value"
board. It sells retail for $44.99 on NewEgg.

The case appears to be made by "Diablotek". TigerDirect sells these
retail for $39.99, including the power supply! I don't know if the
power supply is compliant. I would guess that a quality motherboard,
case and motherboard would cost about $250.00, or more, compared to a
cost of about $85 (retail) for this eBay seller.

Anyway, my question is: Is it legal to sell computers in the U.S.
without FCC certification? A look at some random eBay auctions
indicates that there are sellers who are selling these kinds of
computers in large quantities.

In looking at the FCC website, I can see where it is legal to assemble
"Home-built" devices for personal uses in quantities of 5 or less (Sec.
15.23). However, section 15.101, says, "Class B personal computers
assembled using authorized CPU boards or power supplies" require a
"Declaration of Conformity". This would appear to indicate that these
sellers (and ebay) are violating FCC regulations with the sale of these
computers.
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/...47cfr15_04.html

In looking at the ebay website, I can see where there is a statement
that says: "Certain electronics equipment, including equipment deemed
unlawful by the Federal Communications Commission (FCC), is not
permitted on eBay."
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/electronics.html

In doing a Usenet search the only thing that I can find on this general
subject is an old post that appeared in the group "alt.culture.hawaii"
on February 26, 1996. Interestingly, this would have been before ebay
really got started. "eBay was founded in Pierre Omidyar's San Jose
living room back in September 1995. It was from the start meant to be a
marketplace for the sale of goods and services for individuals." It's
also interesting to note that the original ebay business model was
directed towards individuals and not businesses. My guess is that eBay
is simply letting some stuff fall through the cracks because of their
phenomenal growth and their transition to a model that includes
business sales. I would also guess, though, that they would be legally
liable for any possible damages.

This old 1996 post from Hawaii, for example, claims there is a
potential danger to public safety. On the one hand, I would think that
this danger is quite remote. On the otherhand, as the quantity of sales
increase the risks obviously increase.

Here's a copy of the old Usenet post from Hawaii:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
February 26, 1996
KAILUA-KONA The Big Island of Hawaii

Is Your Computer Illegal? PART I OF A THREE-PART SERIES
Lawsuit Will Seek Refunds For Thousands Of Unsuspecting Computer Buyers
in Hawaii!

A SPECIAL CONSUMER NEWS FEATURE prepared by staff at
http://thebigisland.com

Would you be shocked to learn that the computer you use in your home or
office is illegal and potentially dangerous? That's right, ILLEGAL
and dangerous. What if you discovered that the person you trusted to
buy your $3,000.00 computer from, was aware that the machine they
"custom-configured" for you was actually illegally manufactured and
illegally offered for sale?

The term "upgrading" one's computer system is about to undergo a
rather unusual twist. Computer dealers and their insurers, in Hawaii
and elsewhere, may eventually be forced to refund potentially millions
of dollars to unsuspecting consumers for such "illegal" computer
sales, as part of a bold new approach to correct the widespread
problem. Consumers of PC's, purchased since 1987, are urged to
contact a Honolulu law firm that will act on behalf of consumers who
have purchased thousands of such "illegal" PC's. With the cost of
the average PC, with most of the bells and whistles, averaging between
$2,500 and $3,500, up until last year, the dollars involved are
mind-boggling.

Very important federal regulations covering personal computer
manufacturing specifications are unknown to the vast majority of
consumers. However, life and death safety services, affecting police
and paramedic operations, aviation, two-way mobile communication, can
be severely disrupted by >these rogue machines. They can also generate
static and illegal interference for nearby televisions, radios,
telephones, etc. The devices have been bla>med for other incredible
accidents and have been the subject of hundreds of studies in Europe
about the dangers of their emissions if improperly manufactured. Those
topics will be covered in greater detail in part II of of our series.

Generally, generic, no-name, IBM-compatible clones, tens of thousands
of such computers have been sold to innocent, unsuspecting consumers,
businesses, and even government agencies in Hawaii, and throughout the
US. The computers, because of their lack of radiation emission
compliance, pose a dangerous risk to public safety. The illegal
computers are lesser-known and many times are brandless. You can most
likely put your mind at ease right now, if your computer was made by
well-known companies such as Compaq, Hewlett-Packard, IBM, DEC, and
even respectable mail-order firms such as DELL and Micron amongst
others.

Jack Shedletsky, a 32-year veteran in charge of the Federal
Communications Commission in Hawaii, is very much aware of the problem.
He is also very concerned that as the power of PC's internal CPU
clock cycle [commonly referred to as the megahertz speed] increases, so
do the dangers from these illegally manufactured computers. Mr.
Shedletsky and his Waipahu office staff, however, have become the
latest victims of the nation's ongoing budget battle. From his office
on Oahu, on a tightly restrained budget,inter-island flights are now an
uncommon event. Therefore, the means to monitor and enforce FCC
compliance has been dramatically reduced.

Meanwhile, certain computer dealers and garage-type operations are
cashing in on unsuspecting consumers, as sales in the PC industry have
been energized by the Internet craze and the hurried scramble for even
more individuals and businesses to participate in the latest stage of
the PC Age.

How do you know if your computer is legal or illegal? According to Mr.
Shedletsky, on the exterior of your computer, a label with the
following statement MUST appear: "This device complies with part 15
of FCC rules." The statement refers to conditions 1 and 2 that are
also listed on the label. What if your computer has no such label?
"It's illegal. There's no room for debate beyond that point,"
stressed Shedletsky.

Several representatives at laboratories, which conduct FCC testing,
stated that even semi-knowledgeable consumers are commonly hood-winked
into believing outright fallacies. Chuck Kendall, of CK Consultants
laboratory, in Mariposa, California, warned us, unscrupulous dealers
commonly "play down the concern" and respond that "the individual
parts are FCC certified." Does that pass Mr. Shedletsky's FCC
rulebook? "Absolutely not. The computer itself, must have either the
aforementioned statement or must have a specific FCC manufacturer
product ID label, or it's illegal," according to the long-time FCC
agent.

Kendall, also told us that chances are better that the monitor,
keyboard, and printer will have proper FCC markings, since a very high
percentage of these items are imported into the US and would never be
able to get past customs without the appropriate certification
statement. Kendall also told us, that his company recently ordered a
printer which was delivered without FCC certification. Unacceptable,
the rogue device was refused and shipped back to the seller pronto for
a refund. Kendall recommends uncertain consumers to first check the
underside of their keyboard or back side of their monitor to find the
statement. After it's located they'll know what to look for, next
check the backside of your computer, generally where all the cables are
plugged into. The same label is most commonly placed there.

Where does the FCC feel the biggest problem exists in Hawaii? "It's
island-wide, but the Big Island, for some reason is a major problem for
the FCC. Not only with illegal computers, but we also get an inordinate
amount of complaints about CB's over there," Mr. Shedletsky told
us in an interview Friday afternoon. The bustling Big Island, complete
with its sprawling cattle ranches, cactus, and paniolos [Hawaiian
cowboys] is enough to conjure up a modern-day image of the 'The Wild
West of Computing.'

Phone calls and visits to local computer stores and numerous one-man
operations confirmed the FCC official's concern. Many computer stores
on the Big Island do offer such "illegal" systems. When asked
whether the systems were FCC certified as class A or B, the responses
ranged from Kendall's prediction of "Well the individual parts
are," to outright arrogance, such as one dealer's very explicit,
"Look we've sold hundreds of these systems since we been in
business and I'm telling you we don't need this FCC thing you're
talking about."

Another dealer was a little more compassionate about our FCC question,
when he in turn asked our staff member, "Is that important to you?
" For a nanosecond, we thought we talking to a psychoanalyst. When we
told him we had heard that it was dangerous and illegal to be sold
without the FCC certification, he simply tried to allay our fears by
telling us, "Lots and lots of computers are sold here without the
FCC's approval, there's really nothing to worry about."

Those days on the information highway will soon come to screeching
halt. Although the FCC currently lacks the funds and staff to
completely enforce its regulations, Shedletsky was gladdened to see
what he called, "Certainly a new approach to the problem. The
consumers of these illegal computers certainly have the law of the land
behind them. It will be interesting to see the reaction of these folks
once the attorneys begin contacting them" It's also a solution
that's likely to gain the interest of attorneys nationwide. "Even
if the purveyor of the equipment has limited assets, many will forced
to seek the refuge of their product liability coverage from insurance
companies. Most of the monetary settlements, in the end, could be a
result of negotiations with their insurers," stated one veteran of
the PC industry..

The FCC doesn't take kindly to dealers who feel they're above the
law. We asked Mr. Shedlestsky what he thought about the computer dealer
who told us not to worry about their computers lack of FCC approval.
"The FCC has the authority to impose $10,000.00 fines per day, per
offense." The dealer is now one of several under the scrutiny of Mr.
Shedletsky's office.

Why do people buy these computers in the first place? Laboratory
officials unanimously told us that it is usually based on the
consumer's misguided notion of supposed savings. One official also
told us, "Because the dealer is cutting corners by using low-end
components, not engineering the system's radiation emission shielding
properly, and avoiding FCC testing and approval, the dealer in turn
pockets those extra dollars for themselves. Many of the systems
consists of components, mainly motherboards and add-in cards, which are
very often of inferior quality."

What should you do if you're already the owner or operator of one of
these rogue computers? Working, or perhaps, in many cases, not working,
to qualify for a refund of your purchase, you'll need copies of the
proof of purchase [store receipt or credit card statement] of a
computer purchased since 1987. A well-known law firm on Oahu is
compiling information from consumers as it prepares its litigation.

MORE IN PART II --- Computing in Hawaii - Is Your Computer Illegal?

Visit http://thebigisland.com for parts upcoming parts II and III of
this feature story.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
http://tinyurl.com/92oj5

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net

2006-02-05, 5:21 am

So how would testing be done for custom made to order PCs by a business
intent on being sure what they build is compliant? What percentage of
the cost of a PC is appropriate?

--
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
| Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
| (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bud--

2006-02-06, 2:21 pm

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
> So how would testing be done for custom made to order PCs by a business
> intent on being sure what they build is compliant? What percentage of
> the cost of a PC is appropriate?
>
There is a good very long thread on this post (should have been
crossposted) in alt.engineering.electrical [which winds up with trolls].

bud--

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-02-06, 2:21 pm

phil-news-nospam@ipal.net wrote:
> So how would testing be done for custom made to order PCs by a business
> intent on being sure what they build is compliant? What percentage of
> the cost of a PC is appropriate?
>
> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> | Phil Howard KA9WGN | http://linuxhomepage.com/ http://ham.org/ |
> | (first name) at ipal.net | http://phil.ipal.org/ http://ka9wgn.ham.org/ |
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to hear from some experts on costs of compliance. However,
from what I gather, there are basically two types of certification
procedures in the U.S. The procedure that the individual board makers
go through and the procedure that system integrators or custom-made
assemblers go through.

The circuit board maker procedure, including CPU boards, is evidently
very expensive. This requires a lot of hours of expert engineering EMC
design and tests at expensive test sites. However, I would guess, that
the expenses are minimized for individual companies as they gain
expertise and experience. Once they learn the "magical" techniques of
minimizing radiation and susceptability, presumably, all they have to
do is duplicate them from one generation of boards to the next. The
continuing problem they face, however, is that each new generation of
boards has faster clocks and requires new techniques.

Modifying the laws to make the procedures and requirements less
stringent or less expensive is probably not an option if U.S.
manufacturers want to sell their products in other parts of the world,
especially Europe. European laws are evidently even more strict than
those in the U.S.

The other FCC certification procedure is theoretically for corporations
(and Mom and Pop) shops who merely assemble the components inside a box
and then sell the computer. This procedure is very simple and
inexpensive and involves no testing. This would, in theory, include
companies like Dell, HP, Apple, Gateway, IBM, eMachines, etc. In
practice, however, these large corporations have to do extensive EMC
testing in order to comply with the requirements of foreign countries.
In addition they have a lot of foreign safety standards they have to
comply with. My understanding is that there are no safety standards
required in the U.S., although I'm sure the large companies do UL
voluntarily, in addition to complying with Canadian and European
standards, etc.

This brings us to the Mom and Pop sellers who make "home-made"
computers and only sell them in the U.S. As I understand it, under
Section 15.101(c)(4) of the FCC regulations, system integrators only
have to do the following 3 things:

1) Use authorized components with an FCC label on them.
2) Follow manufacturers' instructions for assembly.
3) Comply with FCC regulations regarding documentation (Sections
2.1077(b), 15.19, 15.21, 15.27 and 15.105).

My guess is that the cost of compliance is minimal. There's also no
bureaucracy or red tape involved. From what I gather, manufacturers
simply self-declare their compliance and learn how to produce the
proper documents on their word processor and printer.

Some of the advantages for the buyer that I can think of are:

1. Educates the system integrator to correct assembly techniques and
the requirement to use FCC authorized components.

2. Helps insure that the system integrator is using world-class
components that are certified and that he isn't using substandard or
counterfeit or bootleg components.

3. An FCC label on the computer case that might make the computer
easier to re-sell at some point in the future.

4. Some degree of safety compliance since power supplies that have an
FCC sticker will typically also have UL certification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_o...ral_Regulations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Part_15_%28FCC_rules%29
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/...47cfr15_04.html

Mike Harrison

2006-02-06, 2:21 pm

>4. Some degree of safety compliance since power supplies that have an
>FCC sticker will typically also have UL certification.

I would't trust any approval sticker :
http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/acadapter.html
This has all the marks you could want, and probably conforms to none of them (except maybe 'indoor
use only', but then maybe you wouldn't want to use it in your house...)

jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk

2006-02-06, 10:21 pm

Here's an example of a power supply without approvals or at least its
not marked. This is a "Powmax AG II 480 Watt". I'm sure this one is not
marked since I happen to have one. It sells for less than $20 and
doesn't have an FCC label or any safety labels either:

http://www.outletpc.com/c0877.html
http://www.bizrate.com/buy/noncat_p...-379443232.html

Note that the sale of this power supply is absolutely legal in the
U.S.--at least as far as I know. I imagine that the sellers (or
re-sellers) could be subject to a law suit, though, if a child was
electrocuted or if the supply started a fire if it doesn't have UL. The
sale of a power supply without FCC approval does, however, become
illegal when a Mom and Pop shop puts it in a computer and sells it.

Here's another example--this one is a 550W. I don't have one of these,
but it looks very much like the 480W model that I do have. It's a
POWMAX AG II PSAG550A:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...N82E16817163028

An interesting thing about this power supply is that it is being
marketed as having "UL, CB, CE" approvals (but not FCC). However, if
you look at the pictures provided in the "Image Viewer", there doesn't
appear to be any labels at all on it.

This power supply sells for only $16.99. Here are some example customer
reviews:

"I guess I paid for what I got. Had it about 60 days. It seemed to do
all right when I installed it. Started smelling and burnt up...."

"You get what you pay for. Burned out in 4 months. Very disappointed. .
.."

"This power supply lasted less then 30 days before a coil burnt up. My
old 400W was better . . ."

For a picture of a power supply that does have an FCC label on it (and
UL/TUV/CB/CUL) look at the Antec SP-400 pictures at:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...N82E16817103935

Interestingly, this supply also has an "N" mark (Nemko) that isn't
documented. According to their website, "NEMKO is a private,
independent testing and certification body that can offer technical
testing . . . with a view to the protection of human life, the
environment and valuable property". This is the sort of power supply
that I want in the computer in my home.

Roy L. Fuchs

2006-02-06, 10:21 pm

On 6 Feb 2006 17:14:38 -0800, jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk Gave us:

>An interesting thing about this power supply is that it is being
>marketed as having "UL, CB, CE" approvals (but not FCC). However, if
>you look at the pictures provided in the "Image Viewer", there doesn't
>appear to be any labels at all on it.

If it passes those other certs, it very likely passes FCC as well.

Since it isn't an actual computer device, ie high frequency digital
motherboard, it likely doesn't need to either. Though being a
switching power supply, one would suppose that it could generate
interference. Still the CE cert has RFI EMI requirements in them,
IIRC.

That is also an El Cheapo brand. The price should tell anyone with
half a brain something. You know what "they" say about getting what
one pays for.

Oh BOY! It has a light in it!

You *could* wait for Fry's or such to put a name brand supply on
sale. Then for twice that money, you would get 5 times the product.

Tzortzakakis Dimitrios

2006-02-09, 10:21 am

--
Tzortzakakis Dimitrios
major in electrical engineering,freelance electrician
FH von Iraklion-Kreta, freiberuflicher Elektriker
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
? <jaywitkow@yahoo.co.uk> ?????? ??? ??????
news:1139274878.239290.309770@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Here's an example of a power supply without approvals or at least its
> not marked. This is a "Powmax AG II 480 Watt". I'm sure this one is not
> marked since I happen to have one. It sells for less than $20 and
> doesn't have an FCC label or any safety labels either:
>
> http://www.outletpc.com/c0877.html
> http://www.bizrate.com/buy/noncat_p...-379443232.html
>
Notice a major mistake on the first ad"15/220 Volts"instead of 115/220
Volts.I check my invoice"Case midi tower braintrust 300 Watt"30 euros
03-22-2004 and still is running well...I can check its specs if you would
like me to.
> Note that the sale of this power supply is absolutely legal in the
> U.S.--at least as far as I know. I imagine that the sellers (or
> re-sellers) could be subject to a law suit, though, if a child was
> electrocuted or if the supply started a fire if it doesn't have UL. The
> sale of a power supply without FCC approval does, however, become
> illegal when a Mom and Pop shop puts it in a computer and sells it.
>
> Here's another example--this one is a 550W. I don't have one of these,
> but it looks very much like the 480W model that I do have. It's a
> POWMAX AG II PSAG550A:
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...N82E16817163028
>
> An interesting thing about this power supply is that it is being
> marketed as having "UL, CB, CE" approvals (but not FCC). However, if
> you look at the pictures provided in the "Image Viewer", there doesn't
> appear to be any labels at all on it.
>
> This power supply sells for only $16.99. Here are some example customer
> reviews:
>
> "I guess I paid for what I got. Had it about 60 days. It seemed to do
> all right when I installed it. Started smelling and burnt up...."
>
> "You get what you pay for. Burned out in 4 months. Very disappointed. .
> ."
>
> "This power supply lasted less then 30 days before a coil burnt up. My
> old 400W was better . . ."
>
> For a picture of a power supply that does have an FCC label on it (and
> UL/TUV/CB/CUL) look at the Antec SP-400 pictures at:
>
> http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produ...N82E16817103935
>
> Interestingly, this supply also has an "N" mark (Nemko) that isn't
> documented. According to their website, "NEMKO is a private,
> independent testing and certification body that can offer technical
> testing . . . with a view to the protection of human life, the
> environment and valuable property". This is the sort of power supply
> that I want in the computer in my home.
>

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