|
Home > Archive > Electrical code Compliance > July 2007 > Replacing 2-Prong Receptacles
You are viewing an archived Text-only version of the thread.
To view this thread in it's original format and/or if you want to reply to
this thread please [click here]
| Author |
Replacing 2-Prong Receptacles
|
|
| RichardandPeg 2007-06-03, 9:25 pm |
| I hope this isn't too dumb...
I am replacing some old 2 prong receptacles with new 3 prong ones.
Still only the old two conductors-hot and neutral- in the box. At
least I don't have to run all over the house searching for an adaptor
when I want to plug something in.
Am I better off to leave the green earth ground terminal empty or
should I run a piece of bare wire from the neutral to it?
| |
|
| RichardandPeg wrote:
> I hope this isn't too dumb...
>
> I am replacing some old 2 prong receptacles with new 3 prong ones.
> Still only the old two conductors-hot and neutral- in the box. At
> least I don't have to run all over the house searching for an adaptor
> when I want to plug something in.
>
> Am I better off to leave the green earth ground terminal empty or
> should I run a piece of bare wire from the neutral to it?
>
Good question - most often seen on alt.home.repair (for US or Canada)
Absolutely do NOT connect the neutral to the receptacle ground.
I will assume you are in the US.
The first question is whether the wiring system is "grounded". That
could be by a bare or green wire (not what you describe). Or by some
kinds of protective metal sheath around the wire - pipe, or several
other methods. Describe how it is wired?
If grounded do one of the following:
- use a "self grounding" outlet.
- if the box has a tapped hole in the back of the box (10--32) run a
grounding pigtail from the receptacle to the tapped hole, or a green or
bare wire from the receptacle to a ground screw in the tapped hole
- run a bare or green wire from the receptacle to a "ground clip" that
slides over the side of the box.
If not grounded
- you can install a GFCI outlet. Include the provided label "No
equipment ground"
- you can install a grounded outlet if the outlet is protected upstream
by a GFCI outlet or GFCI circuit breaker. Attach labels "No equipment
ground" and "GFCI protected"
- (another possibility is to add an external ground wire - often not easy).
--
bud--
| |
| Dr J R Stockton 2007-06-04, 8:25 pm |
| In sci.engr.electrical.compliance message <1180923644.541838.311450@p47g
2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, Sun, 3 Jun 2007 19:20:44, RichardandPeg
<beezoboar@hotmail.com> posted:
>I hope this isn't too dumb...
>
>I am replacing some old 2 prong receptacles with new 3 prong ones.
>Still only the old two conductors-hot and neutral- in the box. At
>least I don't have to run all over the house searching for an adaptor
>when I want to plug something in.
>
>Am I better off to leave the green earth ground terminal empty or
>should I run a piece of bare wire from the neutral to it?
Since you are too dumb to give any indication of your location in this
international newsgroup (legislation and practice varies widely across
the world), you should leave the task to a local professional. Remember
Lord Finchley.
--
(c) John Stockton, Surrey, UK. *@merlyn.demon.co.uk / ??.Stockton@physics.org
Web <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
Correct <= 4-line sig. separator as above, a line precisely "-- " (SoRFC1036)
Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (SoRFC1036)
| |
| RichardandPeg 2007-06-05, 9:25 am |
| On Jun 4, 4:28 pm, Dr J R Stockton <j...@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> In sci.engr.electrical.compliance message <1180923644.541838.311450@p47g
> 2000hsd.googlegroups.com>, Sun, 3 Jun 2007 19:20:44, RichardandPeg
> <beezob...@hotmail.com> posted:
>
>
>
>
> Since you are too dumb to give any indication of your location in this
> international newsgroup (legislation and practice varies widely across
> the world), you should leave the task to a local professional. Remember
> Lord Finchley.
Not dumb, just forgetful. I live in Atlanta, GA, USA. Who the hell
is Lord Finchley and why are you too dumb to remind us of what he
said or did?
Actually I am a pretty good electrician even tho that isn't my job.
My assesment of the deal was that a three prong receptacle in a two
wire box is no different than a two prong receptacle with a plug
adaptor. When all is said and done what I have is still only two
wires- hot and neutral- powering what ever is plugged in.
Would it help, harm or make no difference if I connected the neutral
wire to the earth terminal on the receptacle and why?
Richard
| |
|
| RichardandPeg wrote:
> On Jun 4, 4:28 pm, Dr J R Stockton <j...@merlyn.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Many people don't have that much experience with newsgroups and don't
know some are international. Other newsgroups I watch, with more
traffic, someone just asks where the OP is from.
[color=darkred]
>
> Not dumb, just forgetful. I live in Atlanta, GA, USA. Who the hell
> is Lord Finchley and why are you too dumb to remind us of what he
> said or did?
>
> Actually I am a pretty good electrician even tho that isn't my job.
> My assesment of the deal was that a three prong receptacle in a two
> wire box is no different than a two prong receptacle with a plug
> adaptor. When all is said and done what I have is still only two
> wires- hot and neutral- powering what ever is plugged in.
>
A GFCI outlet (or downstream from a GFCI) makes it safe. If the current
in the 2 wires differs by 5mA (like current flowing through your body to
ground) the GFCI will trip.
> Would it help, harm or make no difference if I connected the neutral
> wire to the earth terminal on the receptacle and why?
>
Other than being a major code violation, if you ever have the neutral
open, the ground will be connected to the hot through the devices
plugged in.
--
bud--
| |
|
|
"Bud--" <remove.BudNews@isp.com> wrote in message
news:93df5$46657dce$4213ebac$1502@DIALUPUSA.NET...
> RichardandPeg wrote:
>
> Many people don't have that much experience with newsgroups and don't know
> some are international. Other newsgroups I watch, with more traffic,
> someone just asks where the OP is from.
>
>
> A GFCI outlet (or downstream from a GFCI) makes it safe. If the current in
> the 2 wires differs by 5mA (like current flowing through your body to
> ground) the GFCI will trip.
>
>
> Other than being a major code violation, if you ever have the neutral
> open, the ground will be connected to the hot through the devices plugged
> in.
>
> --
> bud--
Installing a 3-prong outlet and then not having the ground slot actually
connected to ground is misleading and dangerous. At least a 2 to 3 prong
adapter with the green wire hanging would give you a clue.
I agree that connecting the neutral leg to the ground at the outlet would be
hazardous -- suppose the black and white lines were reversed somehow.
TKM
| |
| Nobody Here 2007-06-06, 1:25 pm |
| TKM <nomail@no.net> wrote:
> Installing a 3-prong outlet and then not having the ground slot actually
> connected to ground is misleading and dangerous. At least a 2 to 3 prong
> adapter with the green wire hanging would give you a clue.
>
> I agree that connecting the neutral leg to the ground at the outlet would be
> hazardous -- suppose the black and white lines were reversed somehow.
Not to mention that if a fault disconnects the neutral inside the
wall the chassis of whatever's connected to the outlet will then be at
live. This can only happen with 2 faults on a properly wired socket
(disconnected earth + short live to chassis).
--
Nobby Anderson
| |
| hrhofmann@att.net 2007-06-06, 8:25 pm |
| On Jun 6, 11:14 am, Nobody Here <n...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> TKM <nom...@no.net> wrote:
>
>
> Not to mention that if a fault disconnects the neutral inside the
> wall the chassis of whatever's connected to the outlet will then be at
> live. This can only happen with 2 faults on a properly wired socket
> (disconnected earth + short live to chassis).
>
> --
> Nobby Anderson
When you try to sell the house at some future point, you will have a
major violation of the electric code in all states. That will cause
the sale to fail and you will have to fix the problem.
It is much cheaper and more legal to buy a couple dozen 3-prong
adapters and plug them into each outlet where you might want to use a
3-wire plug. Using the 3-prong outlet connected illegally, and then
someone gets hurt, could land you in jail!!!!
H. R. (Bob) Hofmann
| |
| Bill Habr 2007-06-17, 1:25 pm |
|
"Nobody Here" <nobby@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:4666dd59$0$8721$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-reader02.plus.net...
> TKM <nomail@no.net> wrote:
>
> Not to mention that if a fault disconnects the neutral inside the
> wall the chassis of whatever's connected to the outlet will then be at
> live. This can only happen with 2 faults on a properly wired socket
> (disconnected earth + short live to chassis).
>
> --
> Nobby Anderson
| |
|
| On Jun 5, 8:16 am, Bud-- <remove.BudN...@isp.com> wrote:
> RichardandPeg wrote:
>
>
> Many people don't have that much experience with newsgroups and don't
> know some are international. Other newsgroups I watch, with more
> traffic, someone just asks where the OP is from.
>
>
>
>
>
> AGFCIoutlet (or downstream from aGFCI) makes it safe. If the current
> in the 2 wires differs by 5mA (like current flowing through your body to
> ground) theGFCIwill trip.
Can someone please explain how a GFCI outlet, where no ground is
present, works? I've seen this described many places (besides here);
however with my (albeit limited) knowledge of what "grounded" and
"GFCI" mean, I don't undertand how this works (I understand that the
GFCI outlet would have to be wired in a particular way, but I still
don't "get it"). Also, it seems like using a GFCI outlet, where no
ground is available, is only a "backup solution", and that an actual
ground is the ideal solution. If so, in what ways are one better than
the other? In particular, which one protects the equipement, the
user, the house from burning down, ... Also, my understanding is that
a non-grounded GFCI has to have special wording on it (by code). What
is this wording? Any outlet that has to come with a disclaimer sounds
scary to me...
thanks
| |
|
| eg wrote:
> On Jun 5, 8:16 am, Bud-- <remove.BudN...@isp.com> wrote:
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
[color=darkred]
>
> Can someone please explain how a GFCI outlet, where no ground is
> present, works? I've seen this described many places (besides here);
> however with my (albeit limited) knowledge of what "grounded" and
> "GFCI" mean, I don't undertand how this works (I understand that the
> GFCI outlet would have to be wired in a particular way, but I still
> don't "get it").
All GFCIs compare the current in the "hot" and "neutral" wire. If there
is a difference of 5mA the GFCI trips. If the currents are not the same,
some of the current is flowing through an alternate path, such as
through you to ground (as explained above). The comparison of the
currents is done by running both wires through a "current transformer".
The ground wire is not needed and not used in the detection. The GFCI is
wired just like a regular outlet (except on 2 wire circuits there is no
ground path available).
> Also, it seems like using a GFCI outlet, where no
> ground is available, is only a "backup solution", and that an actual
> ground is the ideal solution. If so, in what ways are one better than
> the other? In particular, which one protects the equipement, the
> user, the house from burning down, ...
It is certainly a good idea to have a ground connection at the outlet. A
ground connection keeps the potential of exposed metal at approximate
earth potential. But another major function of a ground wire is to
provide a low resistance path back to the power source to trip a breaker
when a hot wire faults to the exposed metal. (In most power systems the
neutral is connected to the ground wires.) This provides shock and fire
protection.
GFCIs provide additional protection in locations where contact to metal
connected to earth, like plumbing is readily available. Or where where
earth is available as outside or through concrete floors. This may
provide fire protection but is primarily aimed at shock protection.
On 2 wire circuits where there is no ground path back to the panel, it
would typically be quite expensive to add a ground path. But many
devices have a 3-prong grounded plug. The US-NEC allows a 'grounded'
type GFCI outlet to be installed, which gives significant protection
using a grounded device on the circuit without the ground path.
> Also, my understanding is that
> a non-grounded GFCI has to have special wording on it (by code). What
> is this wording? Any outlet that has to come with a disclaimer sounds
> scary to me...
>
For a GFCI installed on a 2 wire circuit (no circuit ground available)
install the sticker supplied with the outlet "No equipment ground". That
warns a user that the grounded type outlet does not actually have a
ground connection. For outlets installed downstream from a GFCI
(protected by the GFCI) also add the label "GFCI protected".
Further questions?
--
bud--
| |
|
| On Jul 8, 11:23 pm, bud-- <remove.BudN...@isp.com> wrote:
> eg wrote:
>
>
>
> All GFCIs compare the current in the "hot" and "neutral" wire. If there
> is a difference of 5mA theGFCItrips. If the currents are not the same,
> some of the current is flowing through an alternate path, such as
> through you to ground (as explained above). The comparison of the
> currents is done by running both wires through a "current transformer".
> The ground wire is not needed and not used in the detection. TheGFCIis
> wired just like a regular outlet (except on 2 wire circuits there is no
> ground path available).
>
>
> It is certainly a good idea to have a ground connection at the outlet. A
> ground connection keeps the potential of exposed metal at approximate
> earth potential. But another major function of a ground wire is to
> provide a low resistance path back to the power source to trip a breaker
> when a hot wire faults to the exposed metal. (In most power systems the
> neutral is connected to the ground wires.) This provides shock and fire
> protection.
>
> GFCIs provide additional protection in locations where contact to metal
> connected to earth, like plumbing is readily available. Or where where
> earth is available as outside or through concrete floors. This may
> provide fire protection but is primarily aimed at shock protection.
>
> On 2 wire circuits where there is no ground path back to the panel, it
> would typically be quite expensive to add a ground path. But many
> devices have a 3-pronggroundedplug. The US-NEC allows a 'grounded'
> typeGFCIoutlet to be installed, which gives significant protection
> using agroundeddevice on the circuit without the ground path.
>
>
> For aGFCIinstalled on a 2 wire circuit (no circuit ground available)
> install the sticker supplied with the outlet "No equipment ground". That
> warns a user that thegroundedtype outlet does not actually have a
> ground connection. Foroutletsinstalled downstream from aGFCI
> (protected by theGFCI) also add the label "GFCIprotected".
>
> Further questions?
Sure - if you're willing to answer them. (The context - my 5 year old
son's room has 3 "grounded" outlets that indicate "open ground", when
I plug in a circuit tester. I have a n electrician coming out soon.
He indicated that ground might be available in the outlets or that he
might be able to do this "non-grounded-GFCI" trick. It might be
possible, albeit expnsive, to run "grounded conduit" (not sure if this
is the best term) along the outside of the house from a pre-existing
ground source. If this sounds strange, it's done in Eichler style
homes in California all the time).
So I'm still trying to understand what incremental benefit a real
grounded outlet provides over a non-grounded GFCI outlet. If a short
occurs between hot and the metal casing of a computer, does the
grounded outlet provide better protection for the computer? Better
protection for the person touching the metal casing? Better protection
for the circuitry in the house? You suggest that in a non-grounded
GFCI outlet, there will not be that "low-resitance path back to the
power source". To me that suggests that if a short occurs, there will
be a lot of current that has nohwere to go (before the GFCI trips)
except through something with high resistance causing too much wattage
for the wiring and leading to something burning...
thanks
| |
|
| eg wrote:
> On Jul 8, 11:23 pm, bud-- <remove.BudN...@isp.com> wrote:
>
> Sure - if you're willing to answer them. (The context - my 5 year old
> son's room has 3 "grounded" outlets that indicate "open ground", when
> I plug in a circuit tester. I have a n electrician coming out soon.
> He indicated that ground might be available in the outlets or that he
> might be able to do this "non-grounded-GFCI" trick. It might be
> possible, albeit expnsive, to run "grounded conduit" (not sure if this
> is the best term) along the outside of the house from a pre-existing
> ground source. If this sounds strange, it's done in Eichler style
> homes in California all the time).
If your ground tester indicates "open ground" there *probably* is no
ground available at the outlet, and grounded-type outlets should not
have been installed. I have never seen grounding added on the outside of
a building. If the outlets are on the 1st floor and there is a basement
with an open ceiling, ground wires may not be too hard to add. Else
adding ground wires is a major pain. If grounds are added, they *must*
tie to the rest of the system, not an isolated ground rod.
>
> So I'm still trying to understand what incremental benefit a real
> grounded outlet provides over a non-grounded GFCI outlet. If a short
> occurs between hot and the metal casing of a computer, does the
> grounded outlet provide better protection for the computer?
In my opinion depends on the nature of the short - probably not. In a
metal case computer, the problem short would only occur in the power
supply and is not likely.
> Better
> protection for the person touching the metal casing?
In general yes. With a solid short the circuit breaker will trip. But a
GFCI will provide shock protection. To get a shock you need not only the
computer case but a path to 'ground'. In your son's room that might not
exist (no path, no shock - like birds sitting on a power line). The NEC
allows GFCIs to be used because they provide reasonable protection where
no ground wire is available. Life is a series of trade-offs.
> Better protection
> for the circuitry in the house?
The circuit does not know there is a short until there is a path from
case to 'ground'. If there is a path, the GFCI will trip.
> You suggest that in a non-grounded
> GFCI outlet, there will not be that "low-resitance path back to the
> power source". To me that suggests that if a short occurs, there will
> be a lot of current that has nohwere to go (before the GFCI trips)
> except through something with high resistance causing too much wattage
> for the wiring and leading to something burning...
There may be voltage 'with nowhere to go'. But if there is high
resistance there will be no current. You could have an electrically
caused fire on a grounded or un-grounded circuit. Probably less likely
with a GFCI than just a grounded circuit.
Other possibilities:
Just use devices with non-grounded plugs in that room.
I'm not sure if laptops have a connection from the power ground to the
power circuit to the laptop. Or laptop with ungrounded plug.
Locate computers with ground plugs elsewhere - assuming there are
outlets with a real ground.
If I had a kid in a room with un-grounded outlets I would probably trust
a GFCI, particularly if there were no ground paths in the room to get a
shock. I would probably use wireless phones and wireless routers, but
that is probably overly protective.
Note that GFCIs have a test button and should be tested about once a
month and probably after powerline 'events'.
Further questions?
--
bud--
| |
|
| On Jul 10, 9:54 am, bud-- <remove.BudN...@isp.com> wrote:
> eg wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If your ground tester indicates "open ground" there *probably* is no
> ground available at the outlet, andgrounded-typeoutletsshould not
> have been installed. I have never seen grounding added on the outside of
> a building. If theoutletsare on the 1st floor and there is a basement
> with an open ceiling, ground wires may not be too hard to add. Else
> adding ground wires is a major pain. If grounds are added, they *must*
> tie to the rest of the system, not an isolated ground rod.
>
>
>
>
> In my opinion depends on the nature of the short - probably not. In a
> metal case computer, the problem short would only occur in the power
> supply and is not likely.
>
>
> In general yes. With a solid short the circuit breaker will trip. But aGFCIwill provide shock protection. To get a shock you need not only the
> computer case but a path to 'ground'. In your son's room that might not
> exist (no path, no shock - like birds sitting on a power line). The NEC
> allows GFCIs to be used because they provide reasonable protection where
> no ground wire is available. Life is a series of trade-offs.
>
>
> The circuit does not know there is a short until there is a path from
> case to 'ground'. If there is a path, theGFCIwill trip.
>
>
> There may be voltage 'with nowhere to go'. But if there is high
> resistance there will be no current. You could have an electrically
> caused fire on agroundedor un-groundedcircuit. Probably less likely
> with aGFCIthan just agroundedcircuit.
>
> Other possibilities:
> Just use devices with non-groundedplugs in that room.
> I'm not sure if laptops have a connection from the power ground to the
> power circuit to the laptop. Or laptop with ungrounded plug.
> Locate computers with ground plugs elsewhere - assuming there areoutletswith a real ground.
>
> If I had a kid in a room with un-groundedoutletsI would probably trust
> aGFCI, particularly if there were no ground paths in the room to get a
> shock. I would probably use wireless phones and wireless routers, but
> that is probably overly protective.
>
> Note that GFCIs have a test button and should be tested about once a
> month and probably after powerline 'events'.
>
> Further questions?
>
> --
> bud--- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
First - thanks for taking the time to answer. More followups if you
have the time.
Several times you predicated you responses with "if there is a path to
ground". My understanding is that if a person touches something that
has shorted out to "hot" (assuming no grunded outlet), then there is
always a path to ground - that path being from "hot" through the
person's body, through the person's feet. And being that the human
body doesn't have that much resistance, enough current will flow
though ones body to do some real harm. And while the amount of current
might depend on the surface of the floor (carpeted, ...), type of
shoes, ... there's always "some" path to ground. Is my understanding
here incorrect?
Alternatively, here is my understanding of what happens when something
shorts and is:
1) plugged into a grounded ooutlet
2) plugged into a non-grounded GFCI
Please let me know if I understand this correctly.
In (1), you've suddenly created a path from "hot" to ground (i.e. from
the location of the short through the 3rd prong) with very little
resitance. So a lot of current starts flowing, immediately (one
hopes) tripping the circuit in the main panel. Once that happens, the
dangerours part is past. Ideally this happens when one isn't using
the electrical item (so there is no shock), but even if someone is
using the electrical item, the circuit trips quickly enough to avoid
bodily harm.
In (2) the metal that has been shorted to "hot" suddenly goes from 0
volts to 110 volts (and can stay that way as long as no one touches
the electrical item). Then as soon as someone touches the exposed
metal that is now "hot" current starts flowing through that person's
body; however, the GFCI outlet detects that hot and neutral have
different amounts of current and it trips, shutting off power to the
outlet. Hopefully, the GFCI outlet trips fast enough that the amount
of current that went through your body didn't do any damage. But in
any case, you are likely to feel at least some shock.
Based on you last comment "I would just a GFCI if there were no path
to gorund... would probably use wireless phone and wireless
router...". Again, I though that there was always a path to ground -
and I'm not sure why wireless would be safer than wired... so I'm
guessing that my understanding is not totally correct...
thanks
| |
|
| eg wrote:
> On Jul 10, 9:54 am, bud-- <remove.BudN...@isp.com> wrote:
>
> First - thanks for taking the time to answer. More followups if you
> have the time.
>
> Several times you predicated you responses with "if there is a path to
> ground". My understanding is that if a person touches something that
> has shorted out to "hot" (assuming no grunded outlet), then there is
> always a path to ground - that path being from "hot" through the
> person's body, through the person's feet. And being that the human
> body doesn't have that much resistance, enough current will flow
> though ones body to do some real harm. And while the amount of current
> might depend on the surface of the floor (carpeted, ...), type of
> shoes, ... there's always "some" path to ground. Is my understanding
> here incorrect?
Wood floor, carpet, floor tile - negligible current. All are good
insulators. Touching the insulation on a 'hot' wire does not give you a
shock.
Grounded plumbing as in a kitchen - problem. Concrete basement floor -
problem.
>
> Alternatively, here is my understanding of what happens when something
> shorts and is:
> 1) plugged into a grounded ooutlet
> 2) plugged into a non-grounded GFCI
> Please let me know if I understand this correctly.
> In (1), you've suddenly created a path from "hot" to ground (i.e. from
> the location of the short through the 3rd prong) with very little
> resitance. So a lot of current starts flowing, immediately (one
> hopes) tripping the circuit in the main panel. Once that happens, the
> dangerours part is past. Ideally this happens when one isn't using
> the electrical item (so there is no shock), but even if someone is
> using the electrical item, the circuit trips quickly enough to avoid
> bodily harm.
Yup
> In (2) the metal that has been shorted to "hot" suddenly goes from 0
> volts to 110 volts (and can stay that way as long as no one touches
> the electrical item). Then as soon as someone touches the exposed
> metal that is now "hot" current starts flowing through that person's
> body; however, the GFCI outlet detects that hot and neutral have
> different amounts of current and it trips, shutting off power to the
> outlet. Hopefully, the GFCI outlet trips fast enough that the amount
> of current that went through your body didn't do any damage. But in
> any case, you are likely to feel at least some shock.
True if there is a path to ground. If there is no ground path for the
person, there is no shock (and no GFCI trip). As noted above, there is
no ground path in most of a house. In a 2nd floor bedroom you probably
have no ground path, and touching a 'hot' case won't do anything (like
birds sitting on a power line).
>
> Based on you last comment "I would just a GFCI if there were no path
> to gorund... would probably use wireless phone and wireless
> router...". Again, I though that there was always a path to ground -
> and I'm not sure why wireless would be safer than wired... so I'm
> guessing that my understanding is not totally correct...
Often no path through person as above. Wired phone is a possible path
(but not likely).
--
bud--
| |
| spuorgelgoog@gowanhill.com 2007-07-27, 5:25 pm |
| On 5 Jun, 13:54, RichardandPeg <beezob...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Not dumb, just forgetful. I live in Atlanta, GA, USA. Who the hell
> is Lord Finchley and why are you too dumb to remind us of what he
> said or did?
Lord Finchley tried to mend the Electric Light
Himself. It struck him dead: And serve him right!
It is the business of the wealthy man
To give employment to the artisan.
(Hilaire Belloc)
Owain
|
|
|
|
|